Question for cops or attorney types

[dave_a]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I mean, it's a good reason to keep those kinds of pics very private (let me know if you ever want them deleted, dave), but not a good legal standard at all.

Nah, I am OK taking my chances. I can't be responsible for what pedos are turned on by. The way I look at it is life is too short to live in fear of stupid stuff. Thanks for the offer though.

And thanks to all for the nice comments about ma boy.

[Beth]

Originally Posted by lady cop

although i believe the child was murdered by her parents, they did her up as pedophiles dream.

There was a beauty pageant tradition in my hubby's family. After the Jon Bonet murder and seeing the perverse ways these little beauty queens were presented, I told his family that my daughter would not be involved in pageants. I hope that, if anything, the little girl's death helped to raise awareness in parents of little girls.

[lady cop]

child beauty pageants as a whole are probably harmless, but JonBenet was decked out like a $2. hooker for her appearances, they put her in las vegas showgirl costumes and made her face up heavily, i thought it was for the mom's vicarious gratification. they also taught her seductive movements for the stage. i really felt sorry for that little girl's life , which was the proximate cause of her death, IMO.

[livius drusus]

I don't think JonBenet was unique, though. From the tapes I've seen, all the other girls in her pageants were dressed and painted and dancing provocatively too.

I saw an HBO documentary following around some of these pageant girls and their moms - not just little girls but also teenagers - and it was horrendous. If I hear one more so-called mother say it's all her daughter's idea and mommy is just trying to help even as she snaps at her and tells her to work harder or she'll never win, I'll yak.

[wei yau]

Those child beauty pageants are very disturbing to me. Primarily because it was so much more than playing dress-up. The makeup and outfits and such are far beyond anything you'd find in an adult beauty paegant (barring wet T-shirt contests or Spring Break hoochie parades).

I've watched the same HBO documentary. I felt nothing but pity for these poor kids. Granted, some of them enjoy it, but it just seem too over the top.

[lady cop]

true Livius....she was only unique in that she was horribly murdered. and still no-one charged in her death.

[wade-w]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I don't think JonBenet was unique, though. From the tapes I've seen, all the other girls in her pageants were dressed and painted and dancing provocatively too.

I saw an HBO documentary following around some of these pageant girls and their moms - not just little girls but also teenagers - and it was horrendous. If I hear one more so-called mother say it's all her daughter's idea and mommy is just trying to help even as she snaps at her and tells her to work harder or she'll never win, I'll yak.

I saw a similar documentary, or maybe even the same one. I found the whole thing to be disgusting. "All her daughter's idea" my ass. What the fuck are these parents thinking?

One question I had that was never answered or even addressed is: Who attends these pageants? I have to wonder if these things aren't pedophile magnets.

[Shaguar]

Let's just pretend I am a wannabe TV producer and here is my pitch to NBC, ABC, whoever for a new show here is my pitch.

1) it is all about girls aged 4-13
2) We dress them up like hookers
3) We make them up like pornstars
4) we teach them to mince about on the catwalk in a suggestive manner
5) And we film it all

I would not expect to get past point 3 before the paedophile unvestigation unit was called and quite rightly so. These pageants are truly bizarre and until I saw a documentary over here regarding the Jon Benet case I had no idea they exsisted.

There is a very large groundswell concerning the adult versions such as Miss World etc as demeaning to women so what does that make these.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by eldar

I've watched the same HBO documentary. I felt nothing but pity for these poor kids. Granted, some of them enjoy it, but it just seem too over the top.

They may enjoy it at times but do they want it? That's one of the things that bugs me the most: the total lack of control these girls have over their lives, all under the (fake, lying and heinous, imo) pretense that this is the life they've chosen consciously and willfully. Where is their agency?

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by wade-w

I saw a similar documentary, or maybe even the same one. I found the whole thing to be disgusting. "All her daughter's idea" my ass. What the fuck are these parents thinking?

I vote projection syndrome. "If my mom had supported me like I'm doing to my daughter I'd have been Miss Princess Queen of Boise and I'd have had a brilliant future of supermarket openings and counting crows' feet." Bah humbug.

One question I had that was never answered or even addressed is: Who attends these pageants? I have to wonder if these things aren't pedophile magnets.

I've wondered that too. Obviously there are parents in the crowd and those weirdly prim ladies who run the child peep show, but I can't help but think like you that there have got to be people looking at the stage like it's a buffet table.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by lady cop

true Livius....she was only unique in that she was horribly murdered. and still no-one charged in her death.

The law is different for rich people.

I saw one news story on the Ramsey family that included part of a videotape Mrs. Ramsey made to show off her Christmas decorations. They had a Christmas tree in every room of the house. It was weird.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

The law is different for rich people.

I saw one news story on the Ramsey family that included part of a videotape Mrs. Ramsey made to show off her Christmas decorations. They had a Christmas tree in every room of the house. It was weird.

My sister in law, also in Colorado coincidentally, also does that. She has 7 full sized trees, all decorated to match the room they are in....a silver and gold tree in her bedroom, a "sports" tree in the sports pub basement, a "country" tree in the family room...etc. Yes, it is weird.

[lady cop]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

The law is different for rich people.

I saw one news story on the Ramsey family that included part of a videotape Mrs. Ramsey made to show off her Christmas decorations. They had a Christmas tree in every room of the house. It was weird.

their house was on a Christmas open house tour of homes in the area...patsy liked to decorate and show off her 'possessions', the house and Jon Benet.

[wei yau]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

They may enjoy it at times but do they want it? That's one of the things that bugs me the most: the total lack of control these girls have over their lives, all under the (fake, lying and heinous, imo) pretense that this is the life they've chosen consciously and willfully. Where is their agency?

I suppose it's a question of degrees. I see little difference between this stuff and father's living out their childhood atheltic fantasies through their sons. I suppose the same might even happen with child musical prodigies and really just about any other extra-curricular activities for children.

It's really a matter of moderation and boundaries. Sure, a lot of kids enjoy these activities and they should ... only when they want to do it. It's when parents start enforcing their own will and desires on the kids, that it becomes a problem.

Of course, this now conflicts with my upbringing as my parents often had to force me to do things because I lacked the self-discipline to do things properly.

I'm sure there's a line here somewhere, but I'm having difficulty finding it this morning.

[Godless Dave]

I'm starting to think "South Park" is a documentary rather than a comedy.

[lady cop]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

I'm starting to think "South Park" is a documentary rather than a comedy.

god i love south park!

[livius drusus]

You thinking of the Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset, Dave? That episode was downright profound.

[LadyShea]

Either Trey or Matt or both grew up in Littleton Colorado. If you watch Bowling for Columbine there is an interview with one of them who talks about it. South Park is definitely has some items based on some real life experiences.

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

You thinking of the Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset, Dave? That episode was downright profound.

I haven't seen that episode. I was thinking of a variety of things: parents who talk ceaselessly about what is best for the children but have no idea what their own kids are saying; Kenny's totally trashy devout Christian mom; the line from the movie about blaming Canada so no one blames the parents; the way the mayor reacted to someone pointing out that not all South Park residents are Christian; the episode where the school administrators encouraged Mr. Whats-his-name to accept his own homosexuality, then wouldn't give him his job back because "We don't hire gay people!"

Drugs are bad, m'kay?

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by eldar

I suppose it's a question of degrees. I see little difference between this stuff and father's living out their childhood atheltic fantasies through their sons. I suppose the same might even happen with child musical prodigies and really just about any other extra-curricular activities for children.

Very true, eldar. There are many ways in which parents can get validation from their children's success, and as you say, it can run the gamut from encouragement and support to abuse.

Of course, this now conflicts with my upbringing as my parents often had to force me to do things because I lacked the self-discipline to do things properly.

I'm with you, but in my case it was just your basic "have you finished your homework yet, young lady?" nagging. All my extracurriculars were very much my choice: ballet when I was a girl, theater, volleyball and student government when I was a teenager.

I'm sure there's a line here somewhere, but I'm having difficulty finding it this morning.

I don't think it's you; it's not an easy thing to pin down. I guess for me the biggest issue is whether parents are providing opportunities or designing a future, and just how much of their child's emotional and physical health they are willing to put on the line for their dreams.