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Old 10-15-2006, 03:01 PM
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Default The Great Experiment

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The Great Experiment

Uri Avnery
14-10-2006

IS IT possible to force a whole people to submit to foreign occupation by starving it?

That is, certainly, an interesting question. So interesting, indeed, that the governments of Israel and the United States, in close cooperation with Europe, are now engaged in a rigorous scientific experiment in order to obtain a definitive answer.

The laboratory for the experiment is the Gaza Strip, and the guinea pigs are the million and a quarter Palestinians living there.

IN ORDER to meet the required scientific standards, it was necessary first of all to prepare the laboratory.

That was done in the following way: First, Ariel Sharon uprooted the Israeli settlements that were stuck there. After all, you can't conduct a proper experiment with pets roaming around the laboratory. It was done with "determination and sensitivity", tears flowed like water, the soldiers kissed and embraced the evicted settlers, and again it was shown that the Israeli army is the most-most in the world.

With the laboratory cleaned, the next phase could begin: all entrances and exits were hermetically sealed, in order to eliminate disturbing influences from the world outside. That was done without difficulty. Successive Israeli governments have prevented the building of a harbor in Gaza, and the Israeli navy sees to it that no ship approaches the shore. The splendid international airport, built during the Oslo days, was bombed and shut down. The entire Strip was closed off by a highly effective fence, and only a few crossings remained, all but one controlled by the Israeli army.

There remained a sole connection with the outside world: the Rafah border crossing to Egypt. It could not just be sealed off, because that would have exposed the Egyptian regime as a collaborator with Israel. A sophisticated solution was found: to all appearances the Israeli army left the crossing and turned it over to an international supervision team. Its members are nice guys, full of good intentions, but in practice they are totally dependent on the Israeli army, which oversees the crossing from a nearby control room. The international supervisors live in an Israeli kibbutz and can reach the crossing only with Israeli consent.

So everything was ready for the experiment.

THE SIGNAL for its beginning was given after the Palestinians had held spotlessly democratic elections, under the supervision of former President Jimmy Carter. George Bush was enthusiastic: his vision of bringing democracy to the Middle East was coming true.

But the Palestinians flunked the test. Instead of electing "good Arabs", devotees of the United States, they voted for very bad Arabs, devotees of Allah. Bush felt insulted. But the Israeli government was ecstatic: after the Hamas victory, the Americans and Europeans were ready to take part in the experiment. It could start:

The United States and the European Union announced the stoppage of all donations to the Palestinian Authority, since it was "controlled by terrorists". Simultaneously, the Israeli government cut off the flow of money.

To understand the significance of this: according to the "Paris Protocol" (the economic annex of the Oslo agreement) the Palestinian economy is part of the Israeli customs system. This means that Israel collects the duties for all the goods that pass through Israel to the Palestinian territories - actually, there is no other route. After deducting a fat commission, Israel is obligated to turn the money over to the Palestinian Authority.

When the Israeli government refuses to pass on this money, which belongs to the Palestinians, it is, simply put, robbery in broad daylight. But when one robs "terrorists", who is going to complain?

The Palestinian Authority - both in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip - needs this money like air for breathing. This fact also requires some explanation: in the 19 years when Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip, from 1948 to 1967, not a single important factory was built there. The Jordanians wanted all economic activity to take place in Jordan proper, east of the river, and the Egyptians neglected the strip altogether.

Then came the Israeli occupation, and the situation became even worse. The occupied territories became a captive market for Israeli industry, and the military government prevented the establishment of any enterprise that could conceivably compete with an Israeli one.

The Palestinian workers were compelled to work in Israel for hunger wages (by Israeli standards). From these, the Israeli government deducted all the social payments levied on Israeli workers, without the Palestinian workers enjoying any social benefits. This way the government robbed these exploited workers of tens of billions of dollars, which disappeared somehow in the bottomless barrel of the government.

When the intifada broke out, the Israeli captains of industry and agriculture discovered that it was possible to get along without the Palestinian workers. Indeed, it was even more profitable. Workers brought in from Thailand, Romania and other poor countries were ready to work for even lower wages and in conditions bordering on slavery. The Palestinian workers lost their jobs.

That was the situation at the beginning of the experiment: the Palestinian infrastructure destroyed, practically no means of production, no work for the workers. All in all, an ideal setting for the great "experiment in hunger".

THE IMPLEMENTATION started, as mentioned, with the stoppage of payments.

The passage between Gaza and Egypt was closed in practice. Once every few days or weeks it was opened for some hours, for appearances' sake, so that some of the sick and dead or dying could get home or reach Egyptian hospitals.

The crossings between the Strip and Israel were closed "for urgent security reasons". Always, at the right moment, "warnings of an imminent terrorist attack" appeared. Palestinian agricultural products destined for export rot at the crossing. Medicines and foodstuffs cannot get in, except for short periods from time to time, also for appearances, whenever somebody important abroad voices some protest. Then comes another "urgent security warning" and the situation is back to normal.

To round off the picture, the Israeli Air Force bombed the only power station in the Strip, so that for a part of the day there is no electricity, and the water supply (which depends on electric pumps) stops also. Even on the hottest days, with temperatures of over 30 degrees centigrade in the shade, there is no electricity for refrigerators, air conditioning, the water supply or other needs.

In the West Bank, a territory much larger than the Gaza Strip (which makes up only 6% of the occupied Palestinian territories but holds 40% of the inhabitants), the situation is not quite so desperate. But in the Strip, more than half of the population lives beneath the Palestinian "poverty line", which lies of course very, very far below the Israeli "poverty line". Many Gaza residents can only dream of being considered poor in the nearby Israeli town of Sderot.

What are the governments of Israel and the US trying to tell the Palestinians? The message is clear: You will reach the brink of hunger, and even beyond, if you do not surrender. You must remove the Hamas government and elect candidates approved by Israel and the US. And, most importantly: you must be satisfied with a Palestinian state consisting of several enclaves, each of which will be utterly dependent on the tender mercies of Israel.

AT THE moment, the directors of the scientific experiment are pondering a puzzling question: how on earth do the Palestinians still hold out, in spite of everything? According to all the rules, they should have been broken long ago!

Indeed, there are some encouraging signs. The general atmosphere of frustration and desperation creates tension between Hamas and Fatah. Here and there clashes have broken out, people were killed and wounded, but in each case the deterioration was halted before it became a civil war. The thousands of hidden Israeli collaborators are also helping to stir things up. But contrary to all expectations, the resistance did not evaporate. Even the captured Israeli soldier has not been released.

One of the explanations has to do with the structure of Palestinian society. The Hamulah (extended family) plays a central role there. As long as one person in the family is working, the relatives, too, do not die of hunger, even if there is widespread malnutrition. Everyone who has any income shares it with all his brothers and sisters, parents, grandparents, cousins and their children. That is a primitive system, but quite effective in such circumstances. It seems that the planners of the experiment did not take this into account.

In order to quicken the process, the whole might of the Israeli army is now being used again, as from this week. For three months the army was busy with the Second Lebanon War. It became apparent that the army, which for the last 39 years has been employed mainly as a colonial police force, does not function very well when suddenly confronted with a trained and armed opponent that can fight back. Hizbullah used deadly anti-tank weapons against the armored forces, and rockets rained down on Northern Israel. The army has long ago forgotten how to deal with such an enemy. And the campaign did not end well.

Now the army returns to the war it knows. The Palestinians in the Strip do not (yet) have effective anti-tank weapons, and the Qassam rockets cause only limited damage. The army can again use tanks against the population without hindrance. The Air Force, which in Lebanon was afraid to send in helicopters to remove the wounded, can now fire missiles at the houses of "wanted persons", their families and neighbors, at leisure. If in the last three months "only" 100 Palestinians were killed per month, we are now witnessing a dramatic rise in the number of Palestinians killed and wounded.

How can a population that is hit by hunger, lacking medicaments and equipment for its primitive hospitals and exposed to attacks on land, from sea and from the air, hold out? Will it break? Will it go down on its knees and beg for mercy? Or will it find inhuman strength and stand the test?

In short: What and how much is needed to get a population to surrender?

All the scientists taking part in the experiment - Ehud Olmert and Condoleezza Rice, Amir Peretz and Angela Merkel, Dan Halutz and George Bush, not to mention Nobel Peace Price laureate Shimon Peres - are bent over the microscopes and waiting for an answer, which undoubtedly will be an important contribution to political science.

I hope the Nobel Committee is watching.
Gush Shalom
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Old 10-15-2006, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

How inflammatory and biased. :rolleyes:
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Old 10-15-2006, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

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To understand the significance of this: according to the "Paris Protocol" (the economic annex of the Oslo agreement) the Palestinian economy is part of the Israeli customs system. This means that Israel collects the duties for all the goods that pass through Israel to the Palestinian territories - actually, there is no other route.
I think that if more people knew this fact they'd have a much different opinion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
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Old 10-15-2006, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

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Originally Posted by cappuccino
How inflammatory and biased. :rolleyes:
Sure.


But it's also pretty much true. The Palestinians are being starved to death, by an occupying force. Go there, cappuccino. See for yourself.
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Old 10-15-2006, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepperspray
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccino
How inflammatory and biased. :rolleyes:
Sure.


But it's also pretty much true. The Palestinians are being starved to death, by an occupying force. Go there, cappuccino. See for yourself.
Since the West Bank is - inarguably at this point - a terrorist state, it's fair to say that they're lucky they haven't been exterminated.
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Old 10-15-2006, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

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Originally Posted by yguy
Since the West Bank is - inarguably at this point - a terrorist state, it's fair to say that they're lucky they haven't been exterminated.
Inarguably he says :rolleyes:

First of all, it is not a state, if anything it is a Bantustan. Second: define terrorist please. I take it you think it is perfectly alright to throw bombs at people from planes (and then say "I feel a slight bump to the plane as a result of the bomb's release. A second later it passes, and that's all. That's what I feel."), but not to take them to enemy territory yourself. Oh yeah, that's right, you already did define terrorist: 'terrorists are by definition the enemies of America'. And the enemies of America are by definition terrorists.

And by 'they' I assume you mean the Palestinians in general? Every Palestinian man, woman and child and would have been exterminated like the vermin they are if not for the unbelievable patience of Gods Chosen People. Again you managed to reach a new moral low. But then I have heard way sicker bulshit spouted by Israel apologists.
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Old 10-15-2006, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

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Originally Posted by yguy
Since the West Bank is - inarguably at this point - a terrorist state,
Uh, it's quite arguably wrong. Not just a little bit wrong, mind you - but totally, unequivocally wrong.

Those of us who actually understand the topic realize this.
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Old 10-16-2006, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

Is this another one of those cases where "submit to foreign occupation" maps out to "acknowledge Israel's right to exist"?
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Old 10-16-2006, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

uh...hello....iraq?

no need to make it a jew conspiracy....

half a million dead and this catches your attention?
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Old 10-16-2006, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

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Originally Posted by ManM
Is this another one of those cases where "submit to foreign occupation" maps out to "acknowledge Israel's right to exist"?
Sheesh, that phrase really is all you have, isn't it?

It says really loudly and clearly in the Geneva Conventions that collective punishment of the population of an occupied territory is illegal. Israel is using these measures to force the Palestinian population to comply, it doesnt even matter what they are forcing them to comply with (releasing a hostage, giving up resistance, recognising Israel's 'right to exist'), it is and remains illegal.
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Old 10-16-2006, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer
uh...hello....iraq?

no need to make it a jew conspiracy....

half a million dead and this catches your attention?
Godsdammit, that old chestnut again...

I can have more than one thing on my mind, ok? And in case you missed it, I am not exactly in favor of the war in Iraq, nor have I been even before it began.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:11 PM
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no you can't have more on your mind, dammit! :)
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepperspray
But it's also pretty much true. The Palestinians are being starved to death, by an occupying force. Go there, cappuccino. See for yourself.
I already am aware of the situation on the West Bank, it's among the topics I stay updated on. Contrary to what you may think, I've never been a supporter of Israel's actions nor of the US's persistent involvement in the affairs between the Palestinians and Israel. It didn't surprise me to hear that the Palestinians elected an anti-American government, you can hardly blame them.

What irked me was how the article portrayed the world leaders as the big-bad evil scientists performing a grisly experiment in order to collect political science data as a metaphor for their motivations As if the situation was that cut and dried. Please, spare me the rhetoric.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManM
Is this another one of those cases where "submit to foreign occupation" maps out to "acknowledge Israel's right to exist"?
Sheesh, that phrase really is all you have, isn't it?

It says really loudly and clearly in the Geneva Conventions that collective punishment of the population of an occupied territory is illegal. Israel is using these measures to force the Palestinian population to comply, it doesnt even matter what they are forcing them to comply with (releasing a hostage, giving up resistance, recognising Israel's 'right to exist'), it is and remains illegal.
It's just that the situation appears to be a bit different when you take into consideration who Israel is fighting against. Hostages are taken for the purpose of extortion. What you characterize as "resistance" is often violent action against innocent Israeli citizens. Just as easily as you say it doesn't matter what Palestinians are doing, I could say it doesn't matter what Israel is doing. However, demonizing one half of the conflict doesn't help when it comes to understanding the underlying motives.

What Israel is forcing the Palestinian population to comply with does matter. There is a difference between trying to steal land from the Palestinians and trying to force them into behaving civilized.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:59 PM
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The article is very compelling although I do have to agree that it is very one sided and can hardly be that black and white.
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ManM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManM
Is this another one of those cases where "submit to foreign occupation" maps out to "acknowledge Israel's right to exist"?
Sheesh, that phrase really is all you have, isn't it?

It says really loudly and clearly in the Geneva Conventions that collective punishment of the population of an occupied territory is illegal. Israel is using these measures to force the Palestinian population to comply, it doesnt even matter what they are forcing them to comply with (releasing a hostage, giving up resistance, recognising Israel's 'right to exist'), it is and remains illegal.
It's just that the situation appears to be a bit different when you take into consideration who Israel is fighting against. Hostages are taken for the purpose of extortion.
Hostages are taken by the Israelis too, they have arrested half the Hamas cabinet, do you seriously think they are gonna charge them with anything? They are abducting Palestinians by the dozens and holding them without charge (inside Israel, another violation of the Geneva Conventions).
Quote:
What you characterize as "resistance" is often violent action against innocent Israeli citizens. Just as easily as you say it doesn't matter what Palestinians are doing, I could say it doesn't matter what Israel is doing. However, demonizing one half of the conflict doesn't help when it comes to understanding the underlying motives.

What Israel is forcing the Palestinian population to comply with does matter. There is a difference between trying to steal land from the Palestinians and trying to force them into behaving civilized.
That is just my point though, isn't it? The US and EU calls whatever the Palestinians are doing terrorism and is forcing them to recognise Israel (what you describe as "behaving civilised"), in blatant contravention of the Geneva Conventions. Who is doing the demonising here? What you characterize as "trying to force them into behaving civilized" is often violent action against innocent Palestinian citizens and always collective punishment.
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:31 PM
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...
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Watser?
Hostages are taken by the Israelis too, they have arrested half the Hamas cabinet, do you seriously think they are gonna charge them with anything? They are abducting Palestinians by the dozens and holding them without charge (inside Israel, another violation of the Geneva Conventions).
For what purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
That is just my point though, isn't it? The US and EU calls whatever the Palestinians are doing terrorism and is forcing them to recognise Israel (what you describe as "behaving civilised"), in blatant contravention of the Geneva Conventions. Who is doing the demonising here? What you characterize as "trying to force them into behaving civilized" is often violent action against innocent Palestinian citizens and always collective punishment.
Are the US and EU arbitrarily labeling the actions of certain Palestinians as terrorism? You seem to conveniently ignore certain pieces of information, such as what Hamas preaches and supports. Don't you see something wrong with them? This article points out just how bad the catch 22 situation has become. If Israel responds to Hamas with violence, people complain. If the response is non-violent, such as the stoppage of funds to the PA, people complain. Which do you think is more likely: funds were cut as part of an effort to starve people into submission, or, funds were cut because it makes zero sense to finance a group who would use the money to support attacks against you?
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Hostages are taken by the Israelis too, they have arrested half the Hamas cabinet, do you seriously think they are gonna charge them with anything? They are abducting Palestinians by the dozens and holding them without charge (inside Israel, another violation of the Geneva Conventions).
For what purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
That is just my point though, isn't it? The US and EU calls whatever the Palestinians are doing terrorism and is forcing them to recognise Israel (what you describe as "behaving civilised"), in blatant contravention of the Geneva Conventions. Who is doing the demonising here? What you characterize as "trying to force them into behaving civilized" is often violent action against innocent Palestinian citizens and always collective punishment.
Are the US and EU arbitrarily labeling the actions of certain Palestinians as terrorism? You seem to conveniently ignore certain pieces of information, such as what Hamas preaches and supports. Don't you see something wrong with them? This article points out just how bad the catch 22 situation has become. If Israel responds to Hamas with violence, people complain. If the response is non-violent, such as the stoppage of funds to the PA, people complain. Which do you think is more likely: funds were cut as part of an effort to starve people into submission, or, funds were cut because it makes zero sense to finance a group who would use the money to support attacks against you?
Well, if you put it like that: I think funds were cut as part of an effort to starve people into submission.
I will say it again, because you still seem determined to miss it: it does not matter what certain Palestinians are doing (and you can label it terrorism if you want, it is certainly not very different from what Israel is doing to the Palestinians) punishing all Palestinians for the actions of a couple of them, even if they are their leaders, is collective punishment and is not just immoral, it is a war crime, it is illegal under international law.
Who is financing? Israel is not financing the PA, it never has. It is withholding funds that BELONG to the PA, blatant daylight robbery.
And the funds the EU is withholding are not funds used to finance a group who would use the money to support attacks, this is the money they need to make their society function.
You profess to be neutral all the time, yet you expect the Palestinians, the weaker party in the conflict, the ones under occupation, to 'recognise Israel's right to exist', that is your mantra, that makes everything ok. Because you are the one ignoring certain pieces of information here, you act as if there is no violence now. You act as if there is no occupation, no settlements, no land grab. Never mind that Israel has never determined where the borders are within which they have their 'right to exist', never mind that Israel has never recognised a Palestinian state's 'right to exist'. Israel is the party that is responding to the violence in your view. Whatever possesses those Palestinians to attack those Israelis with their beautifull democracy, I havent a clue :duh:
You know this is the worst part of the whole thing. It is one thing that the Israelis are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, that they kill them and starve them, it happens all the time. It is the fact that they want to be considered part of the civilised world and that otherwise reasonable people keep making up excuses for them that is making me sick.
Anyway if Hamas had any sense they would throw in the towel, dismantle the PA and hand the responsibility of taking care of the Palestinian population right back to Israel. It is not as if they have any real power anyway and it would make the real relation between the Palestinians and the Israeli clear again.
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer
uh...hello....iraq?

no need to make it a jew conspiracy....

half a million dead and this catches your attention?

Since one of the stated purposes of the invasion of Iraq was to protect Israel?
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by angrybellsprout
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jesus Lawyer
uh...hello....iraq?

no need to make it a jew conspiracy....

half a million dead and this catches your attention?

Since one of the stated purposes of the invasion of Iraq was to protect Israel?
Oh, for Buddha's sake Bellsprout...

Who stated that? (Apart from you, that is)
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManM
Which do you think is more likely: funds were cut as part of an effort to starve people into submission, or, funds were cut because it makes zero sense to finance a group who would use the money to support attacks against you?

If you think every man , woman and children living in Gaza are terrorists it makes sense.If not , then this is a clear example of collective punishment which is against international laws.
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:22 PM
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One of the key reasons to take actions against Iraq, both in 1998 and in 2003 was based on Saddam's 'links' to 'terrorism'

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Mr. Speaker, for the more than one dozen years I have spent as a federal legislator I have taken a particular interest in foreign affairs and especially the politics of the Middle East. From my seat on the international relations committee I have had the opportunity to review dozens of documents and to sit through numerous hearings and mark-up sessions regarding the issues of both Iraq and international terrorism.

...

Claim: Iraq is an international sponsor of terrorism.

Reality: According to the latest edition of the State Department's Patterns of Global Terrorism, Iraq sponsors several minor Palestinian groups, the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), and the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). None of these carries out attacks against the United States. As a matter of fact, the MEK (an Iranian organization located in Iraq) has enjoyed broad Congressional support over the years. According to last year's Patterns of Global Terrorism, Iraq has not been involved in terrorist activity against the West since 1993 – the alleged attempt against former President Bush.
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  #24  
Old 10-16-2006, 08:07 PM
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Watser? Watser? is offline
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

The PKK, eh?

It is all becoming clear now: it is all a Turkish conspiracy
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  #25  
Old 10-16-2006, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: The Great Experiment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Well, if you put it like that: I think funds were cut as part of an effort to starve people into submission.
I will say it again, because you still seem determined to miss it: it does not matter what certain Palestinians are doing (and you can label it terrorism if you want, it is certainly not very different from what Israel is doing to the Palestinians) punishing all Palestinians for the actions of a couple of them, even if they are their leaders, is collective punishment and is not just immoral, it is a war crime, it is illegal under international law.
Well, that's a rather sweeping condemnation, and one which can also capture economic sanctions. As for your repetition, I've already responded to your point about it not mattering what the Palestinians are doing. The same sort of rhetoric is employed by the other side as well. If you are trying to actually understand the conflict, it is helpful to take into account what both sides are doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Who is financing? Israel is not financing the PA, it never has. It is withholding funds that BELONG to the PA, blatant daylight robbery.
Who gave Israel the PA's money?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
And the funds the EU is withholding are not funds used to finance a group who would use the money to support attacks, this is the money they need to make their society function.
When the group in charge of making society function also supports attacks, the line here is blurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
You profess to be neutral all the time, yet you expect the Palestinians, the weaker party in the conflict, the ones under occupation, to 'recognise Israel's right to exist', that is your mantra, that makes everything ok. Because you are the one ignoring certain pieces of information here, you act as if there is no violence now. You act as if there is no occupation, no settlements, no land grab. Never mind that Israel has never determined where the borders are within which they have their 'right to exist', never mind that Israel has never recognised a Palestinian state's 'right to exist'.
Yes, I expect the Palestinians (and other Muslims) to recognize Israel's right to exist, as a matter of historical understanding. Don't you agree that Israel came to be in a legal fashion? As for your claim about Israel not recognizing a Palestinian state's “right to exist”, that certainly is strange. How do you reconcile that with Israel leaving Gaza to the PA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
You know this is the worst part of the whole thing. It is one thing that the Israelis are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, that they kill them and starve them, it happens all the time. It is the fact that they want to be considered part of the civilised world and that otherwise reasonable people keep making up excuses for them that is making me sick.
And yet, groups which perform violent actions with the goal of destroying Israel don't seem to cause you any alarm. That doesn't make you sick at all. This is a conflict, and the whole damn thing makes me sick. The surprising thing is the number of people who choose the side of the intolerant. How is it that people so attuned to western values seem to be oblivious to the words of Hamas co-founder Mahmoud al-Zahar? “I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Anyway if Hamas had any sense they would throw in the towel, dismantle the PA and hand the responsibility of taking care of the Palestinian population right back to Israel. It is not as if they have any real power anyway and it would make the real relation between the Palestinians and the Israeli clear again.
If Hamas had any sense, they would renounce violence, oppose the Mujahideen who attack Israel from their country, and work towards improving the social conditions in Palestine.
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