Bail-out questions

[Crumb]

Originally Posted by yguy

Actually the opposite is true, because when those companies go down, so do the jobs they provided.

The great thing is that directly buying up the bad mortgages helps the home owners and the companies.

Also if these jobs depend on the inflated values of homes then they will go away one way or the other. All that values simply does not exist, which means we have more jobs than the value of home collateral can support. Propping those jobs up with more credit is a temporary solution that simply costs more money.

The obvious solution is for the government (and private buyers) to buy up a large number of the troublesome loans and then renegotiate them and try to get some long term returns that help buyers keep their homes. The companies should lose money and be forced to shrink, but we are over inflated with home equity lenders simply because of the inflated home values. This industry needs to shrink.

[Dingfod]

Don't worry, I'm not going to respond to that fuckwit ever again. I advise everyone else to do the same.

[yguy]

Originally Posted by wei yau

So, now you're for the bailout?

No, I'm saying it it's going to be done, it makes more sense to bail out business owners than homeowners.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by yguy

No, I'm saying it it's going to be done, it makes more sense to bail out business owners than homeowners.

No, as Crumb said, bailing out the homeowners actually does bail out the businesses. The problem the businesses are having is that they're holding assets that aren't worth the paper they're printed on, thanks to the high default rate of the mortgages that they are based on. Reduce that default rate, the asset value goes up, the business is fine.

[Crumb]

Here is a great blog about the bailout: Wash Post's Pearlstein: Anyone opposing the bailout is ignorant - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

[Gyre]

This whole bail out and crisis is a sham.

The real crisis is the that bush giveaway is near it's end so the central bankers are manipulating the markets, yet again, to create an artificial "crisis" to push through one final huge giveaway.

If the GOP has been for anything, they have been for siphoning all the peoples money to themselves and their rich friends.

The real crisis in our country has nothing to do with wall street, it's the education system, the prison system, and the offshoring of all of our decent jobs.

[yguy]

Originally Posted by Gyre

If the GOP has been for anything, they have been for siphoning all the peoples money to themselves and their rich friends.

How do you figure that?

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by yguy

How do you figure that?

By checking the changes in tax law. And the structure of the bail-out legislation.

Duh.

OH! But you were only TROLLING!

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by yguy

No, I'm saying it it's going to be done, it makes more sense to bail out business owners than homeowners.

Actually, no it doesn't.

If you'd like to support your claim, feel free to do so.

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by yguy

How do you figure that?

It's this thing we have that we use, it's called a brain.

[freemonkey]

You know what else is really sucky about all this now, after the original suckiness, that is?

That it looks like they are all using bribes and/or threats against eachother to get this passed. And, whatever happens next week, next year, next century, one side will blame the other for what goes wrong, and/or they will all be dislocating their shoulders patting themselves on the bank.

Dysfunctional!

[godfry n. glad]

Plus, I understand the Senate version is jam packed with earmarks and other unrelated bullshit.

[GodPossessed]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

Compassion. Of course, that's not something you would know much about.

Compassion is a kinda easy with other people's money.

just sayin...

[Dingfod]

I put my money where my mouth is, and, like Senator Biden, not because it's tax deductible. And, I don't mind paying over $33,000 a year in income taxes either.

[freemonkey]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Plus, I understand the Senate version is jam packed with earmarks bribes and other unrelated bullshit.

[GodPossessed]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

I put my money where my mouth is, and, like Senator Biden, not because it's tax deductible. And, I don't mind paying over $33,000 a year in income taxes either.

You da man, but... that's what you do with your money. I doubt that you would take my money and be generous with it. That's my point about gubmint "compassion". It's illegitimate.

I like how you live in a perfect, self-contained environment that need not interact nor be interacted with except by your express approval.

Which deity possesses you, btw...?

[GodPossessed]

Originally Posted by Uthgar the Brazen

I like how you live in a perfect, self-contained environment that need not interact nor be interacted with except by your express approval.

Which deity possesses you, btw...?

Now, now. That's a little over the top, doncha think? I understand that there are realities that we all must accept. My point is that compassion is too important to let it become faceless and impersonal if we can help it. What besides forced charity would you be willing to approve the use of force for? It seems right when people are hurting and "Dammit, something must be done!" but at what cost? Freedom, morality, property? Maybe those don't mean to you what they mean to me.

[maddog]

Originally Posted by GodPossessed

You da man, but... that's what you do with your money. I doubt that you would take my money and be generous with it. That's my point about gubmint "compassion". It's illegitimate.

Well, I disagree with that. The society has to function somehow, and under social compact and democratic principles, we elect representatives to act for us. We the People are the sovereign; we have to carry out certain functions, and the sole power granted by the people to do so is the power to tax. It's not "illegitimate," it's agreed upon. It's right there in the Constitution. Therefore, the tax revenues are not "your money," they are "our" money -- that without which there is no state. The Revolution was not fought over the slogan, "no taxation, full stop." It was "no taxation without representation." We got that representation.

#1892

[Petra]

It amazes me that there is not more outrage over this aspect of the plan. Paulson seems to be leaving open the possibility that the same firms that are being bailed out could be hired to run the bailout. This would mean that institutions receiving a monumental giveaway of taxpayer money could turn around and earn yet more by acting as the government’s brokers. Aside from the unseemliness of this arrangement, this would be an egregious conflict of interest.

CorpWatch*:*The Dangers in Outsourcing the Bailout

[yguy]

Originally Posted by maddog

Well, I disagree with that. The society has to function somehow, and under social compact and democratic principles, we elect representatives to act for us. We the People are the sovereign; we have to carry out certain functions, and the sole power granted by the people to do so is the power to tax. It's not "illegitimate," it's agreed upon. It's right there in the Constitution. Therefore, the tax revenues are not "your money," they are "our" money -- that without which there is no state.

Madison, the chief architect of the Constitution, had this to say to such as you:

I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.

What do you know that he didn't?

[GodPossessed]

You make several good points, but I take exception to this part:

Originally Posted by maddog

We the People are the sovereign;
#1892

"We the people" may have force on our side and even opinion but we cannot make one thing right or wrong. We can only try to argue and interpret that distinction. I agree that there is wisdom in "the people" such that democracy is the overwhelmingly preferred path. I would, however, caution against taking it's current temperature as the oracles of ultimate wisdom.

[Petra]

http://nz.

YouTube - Rep. Brad Sherman Martial Law

[Petra]

http://nz.

YouTube - Glenn Beck hits McCain on Bailout and...

Glenn Beck tells it like it is.

[erimir]

Glenn Beck is gross. But he was actually tolerable there. And I agree about the bill, altho I don't think the biggest issue is the earmarks by far. But it does demonstrate the exploitation.