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  #26  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:03 PM
Wonderbread Leotard Wonderbread Leotard is offline
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Default Re: First Amendment on the web

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Actually, just for the record he didn't actually say that
True. He's very modest. :D

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To what extent should a moderator/owner of a web forum that is open to the general public for the purpose of discussing politics be allowed to edit posts or ban posters? How much should such web forums be governed by the First Amendment?
In the legal theory underlying U.S. law, property rights tend to take precedence over other legal rights related to discursive expression. Thus, having ownership of the means of discursive production is key. The American proprietor of a vBulletin forum is (by default) no more obligated to provide anyone else a platform for expression than is the corporate owner of a Hollywood studio.
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  #27  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: First Amendment on the web

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At the risk of accidentally starting a serious discussion (not to mention a serious derail) but couldn't the same be asked of human rights? Or is there a distinction because of the "natural" word in the phrase natural rights?
natural rights and human rights are basically the same thing and they came out of the enlightenment*. They were used during the nuremberg trial to try nazis.


*one could also argue that the idea can be traced much farther back in a variety of philosophical and religious sources actually.
I don't even know why you are even talking to me here if you are going to ignore my PM.
I don't know why person a would say to person b hey get on aim and then when person b did person a would proceed to not say anything.

In short I figured something shiny had gotten your attention.

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  #28  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: First Amendment on the web

Dupe de doop doop doop
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  #29  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: First Amendment on the web

Whether they were used for a purpose we all like or not, like trying Nazi's for fresh-minted crimes, the concept of natural rights are incoherent gibberish.

I think these two snippets from the Wikipedia pages from "natural rights" and "rights" respectively are a good starting point in understanding why I say that:

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Some philosophers and political scientists make a distinction between natural and legal rights. Natural rights (also called moral rights or inalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs or a particular society or polity.
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Rights are legal or moral entitlements or permissions.
Natural rights are moral entitlements "which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs or a particular society or polity", basically.

i.e. They are inherent entitlements.

Now the first thing you should be asking yourself (if you're not yguy, who's answer is automatically "because God sed so"), is WTF does "inherent entitlement" actually mean. Does it mean anything at all?

How can an "entitlement" be "inherent". Inherent usually means "a quality of" and "entitlement" implies that you ought to receive something, be it freedom or some form of treatment by man and beast.

So where, oh where, in the human body, do we see the quality of "other people ought to"-ness. How do we measure it? How do we even percieve it. The short answer is, we don't. There is no quality of oughtness that we can taste, touch, smell or hear.

Ought only comes into existence when people tell other people "you ought to" and it only carries a force equivalent to the respect or the fear that you hold for the person telling you that you ought to. Any philosopher with even the vaguest respect for actual, empirical evidence will admit that.

So if ought is entirely a product of respect or fear for or of others, the things you ought to do cannot be the same for all people in all times, since the people you respect or fear and the things they might think you ought are different across the span of humanity, throughout history.

Thus they are self evidently not inherent entitlements at all, they are social contracts - and since natural rights are "not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs or a particular society or polity", there can be no natural rights.

Of course, this has been recognised as simple common sense to a great many philosophers stretching back to the ancient world, so by way of trying to "fix" something that was never really broken (I mean, come on, its just another theory in search of evidence) countless people have wasted countless hours trying, somehow, to show that this deontological ought logically follows from what is (what has happened in the past).

The most notable critic of this metaphysical wankery in recent times was the 18th century Scottish philosopher David Hume. Wikipedia again

Quote:
Hume noted that many writers talk about what ought to be on the basis of statements about what is (is-ought problem). (David Hume, A Treatise of Human Nature, 2nd ed. / with text rev. and variant readings by P. H. Nidditch. (Oxford : Clarendon Press ; New York : Oxford University Press, 1978), book III, part I, section I,469.)[citation needed] But there seems to be a big difference between descriptive statements (what is) and prescriptive statements (what ought to be). Hume calls for writers to be on their guard against changing the subject in this way without giving an explanation of how the ought-statements are supposed to follow from the is-statements. But how exactly can you derive an "ought" from an "is"? That question, prompted by Hume's small paragraph, has become one of the central questions of ethical theory, and Hume is usually assigned the position that such a derivation is impossible. (Others interpret Hume as saying not that one cannot go from a factual statement to an ethical statement, but that one cannot do so without going through human nature, that is, without paying attention to human sentiments.) Hume is probably one of the first writers to make the distinction between normative (what ought to be) and positive (what is) statements, which is so prevalent in social science and moral philosophy. G. E. Moore defended a similar position with his "open question argument", intending to refute any identification of moral properties with natural properties ("naturalistic fallacy").
And since Humes time, no-one has actually shown such a logical derivation.

Which brings us to Rand. Conscious of her need to bridge this gap before she could confidently claim some kind of objective, ultimately true morality, Rand engaged in a bunch of contortions laden with unwarranted a priori premises which she seemingly conjured out of thin air:

Quote:
Rand's ethical egoism is her most well-known position. She advocated "rational selfishness." In The Virtue of Selfishness she gave an original validation of her moral code, claiming to have bridged the infamous gap between "Is" and "Ought"—or between facts and values. She begins by asking "What are values? Why does man need them?" She argues that the concept of "value" depends upon the concept of an "alternative" in the face of which one must act. "Where no alternatives exist, no goals and no values are possible." [27] The next point in her derivation is to argue that "there is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on a specific course of action....It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death....It is only the concept of 'Life' that makes the concept of 'Value' possible."[28]

All living organisms, she held, act to gain values—i.e., the items their survival requires. An organism's own life is its ultimate value. But man enters the sphere of moral values because man has free will: one does not automatically hold his own life as his ultimate value. Whether he acts to promote and fulfill his own life or not is up to him, not hard-wired into his physiology. "Man has the power to act as his own destroyer—and that is the way he has acted through most of his history."[29] The purpose of a moral code, Rand held, is to provide a standard of value and a code of virtues by reference to which man can achieve the values his survival requires and which enhance his life. Her standard of value is: "Man's life qua rational being," and rationality is the primary virtue of this code. The derivative virtues of her Objectivist morality are: independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, and pride—each of which she explains in some detail in "The Objectivist Ethics."
Then declared herself winner, in much the same manner that many Internet trolls do. This is why so many Randroids automatically sound like trolls when spouting Rand.

Of course Rand's analysis can be shredded on half a dozen points, but it doesn't stop Randroids from confidently declaring her teh winner of that particular thread in philosophy, over and over again.

Here's just one, gaping hole in her argument: That the ultimate value of humans is their own self-preservation. She takes that as a given, because, you know, their life is what gives them values. I mean that's obvious right?

Wrong. Because "value" is just another way of saying "that which you ought to hold dear". See it? She's slipped the conclusion into her premises. Circular argument. EPIC FAIL.

In conclusion, "natural rights", like "free will" is a term entirely without coherent meaning, a confection, a puff of contradictory smoke. It is simply a term used to assert the entitlements and obligations desired by those who presently wield power (or those seeking to sway those who wield power), without the burdonsome task of having to justify such entitlements and obligations.

The concept of human rights as espoused by, say, the UN, may often come burdened with this same language of metaphysical fluff ("inalienable" etc) but they also carry the force of law in the form of treaties and the consequent enforcement of those treaties in law in various countries, as well as constitutions. So the use of meaningless metaphysical phrases to preface those treaties, constitutions and laws isn't what validates those rights. Military forces and policemen with guns do. They are social contracts, drawn up between various people and imposed on their descendants.
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  #30  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: First Amendment on the web

I hope it's okay that I only read it once.
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  #31  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: First Amendment on the web

If only there was a thread to discuss natural rights.


If only.
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  #32  
Old 12-23-2008, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: First Amendment on the web

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Originally Posted by Farren View Post
Whether they were used for a purpose we all like or not, like trying Nazi's for fresh-minted crimes,
Hardly. They were merely crimes whose criminality had not been attested to by written law.
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the concept of natural rights are incoherent gibberish.
Actually it is infinitely more elegant than any mathematical equation, your efforts to transform them into gibberish via deconstruction notwithstanding.
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Natural rights are moral entitlements "which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs or a particular society or polity", basically.

i.e. They are inherent entitlements.

Now the first thing you should be asking yourself (if you're not yguy, who's answer is automatically "because God sed so"), is WTF does "inherent entitlement" actually mean. Does it mean anything at all?
Sure. An inherent right is one that may not be justly infringed.
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How can an "entitlement [endowment]" be "inherent"?
Ask Jefferson. ;)
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Inherent usually means "a quality of" and "entitlement" implies that you ought to receive something, be it freedom or some form of treatment by man and beast.
"Entitlement" is a bad choice of words, but the idea of inherent rights implies that there is some treatment that an individual ought not be subjected to insofar as it can be prevented by other humans.
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So where, oh where, in the human body, do we see the quality of "other people ought to"-ness.
Where in the human body do you see the quality of humanity? Nowhere.
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How do we measure it?
What for?
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How do we even percieve it?
What's the difference? Were you blind up to the time you found out what a cornea is?
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The short answer is, we don't.
Speak for yourself, if you don't mind.
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There is no quality of oughtness that we can taste, touch, smell or hear.
But we sense it all the same. If we didn't, we'd never get angry about any perceived injustice.
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Ought only comes into existence when people tell other people "you ought to"
No. The telling of it only bears witness to what is already known - assuming it isn't just a lie to control people, such as "You ought to bicycle to work to save planet Earth".
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and it only carries a force equivalent to the respect or the fear that you hold for the person telling you that you ought to.
So who are your gods?
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Any philosopher with even the vaguest respect for actual, empirical evidence will admit that.
There is no empirical evidence that supports the idea that people acting like cattle is normal - only that it is average. If there were, the Holocaust would have no more historical significance than the extinction of the Dodo bird.
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  #33  
Old 12-23-2008, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: First Amendment on the web

yguy can I ask you a favour? Bey started a thread on natural rights and we're going to end up debating exactly the same thing on two threads. Would you mind terribly copying and pasting this to the other thread, because I think it would make more sense to have it all in one place, rather than repeat things.
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  #34  
Old 12-23-2008, 07:04 PM
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Would you mind terribly copying and pasting this to the other thread,
Done.
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  #35  
Old 12-23-2008, 09:05 PM
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  #36  
Old 12-23-2008, 09:18 PM
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OMG, censorship!
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  #37  
Old 12-23-2008, 09:43 PM
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OMG, censorship!
Private forum akin to private property. OMG, communisms!!11!
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