Dems "Excommunicated" From Church

Ronin · #1 05-06-2005, 05:19 AM

Waynesville Baptist Church has just kicked out all of its Democratic members.

"There is more than one kind of freedom...Freedom to and freedom from. In the days of anarchy, it was freedom to. Now you are being given freedom from. Don't underrate it." ~ The Handmaid's Tale

Dingfod · #2 05-06-2005, 05:26 AM

WTF? Asshats is too kind. Couldn't this church lose their tax-exempt status over choosing political sides like that? It would serve them right if it did. It would also shut other like them the fuck up.

viscousmemories · #3 05-06-2005, 05:48 AM

Man, that's fucked. At least the news report says 40 other members left in protest. I put a copy of the news clip here (Windows Media Player format).

Ronin · #4 05-06-2005, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrenly

Couldn't this church lose their tax-exempt status over choosing political sides like that?

I'm no tax-law expert, warrenly, but that does seem to be the first problem I see with such a divisive action from radical cleric Chandler.

Ronin · #5 05-06-2005, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Man, that's fucked. At least the news report says 40 other members left in protest. I put a copy of the news clip here (Windows Media Player format).

Thanks, vm...that is the first time I've seen the video.

:2thumbsup:

Well, I'm certainly glad it wasn't politically motivated.

:saywhat:

viscousmemories · #6 05-06-2005, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin

Well, I'm certainly glad it wasn't politically motivated.

Yeah I know, I loved that part. :laugh:

The Lone Ranger · #7 05-06-2005, 06:14 AM

Gadzooks! Are they going to start requiring registered Democrats to wear a scarlet "L" every time they go out in public?

Since churches are legally forbidden to engage in partisan politics, it seems that they should indeed lose their tax-exempt status over this. But would the Bush Justice Department enforce it? I seem to recall NPR reporting that quite a lot of ministers were openly telling their congregations to vote for Bush in the last election, but somehow, the Justice Department had better things to do than to look into the issue.

-- Michael

wildernesse · #8 05-06-2005, 03:28 PM

There appears to be very little oversight of churches wrt their tax-exempt status, which is a shame. From the IRS's tax guide for Churches and Religious Organizations:

Quote:

On the other hand, voter education or registration activities with evidence of bias that

a) would favor one candidate over another; (b) oppose a candidate in some manner; or (c) have the effect of favoring a candidate or group of candidates, will constitute prohibited participation or intervention.

And of course it wasn't religiously motivated! Only people with evil spirits would vote for Democrats, and you don't want those kind of people in church with you. . .

ChuckF · #9 05-06-2005, 11:13 PM

My mother grew up in Waynesville, and I spent a lot of time there growing up. I'm delighted to see that some people walked out at least.

canaan · #10 05-07-2005, 12:57 AM

Anyone know exactly what the pastor said? All I'm finding is what was said afterwards...and bitter ex church members tend to skew the facts at times.

Is it possible that he was talking about the different issues that the candidates represented and whether or not they agreed with scripture?

And wasn't John Kerry visiting lots of churches during the campaign trying to gain support? How is that not using church for political reasons?

And yeah, the election was 7 months ago. Why are we just hearing about this now?

Maybe the media should pick this up and give the runaway bride a rest for a while.

Dingfod · #11 05-07-2005, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canaan

Maybe the media should pick this up and give the runaway bride a rest for a while.

At least she apologized.

Godwhacker · #12 05-07-2005, 02:27 AM

During the last election a whole bunch of churches bussed in right leaning voters to the polls, etc., and not a one lost its tax exempt status.

I read somewhere that Nazi Germany would give government subsidies to churches, etc. All in the spirit of the Teutonic Knights, eh?...or maybe Bush's grandad?...

When you think about it, however, I wonder if this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Look how much Christianity has weakened itself over the years by splitting themselves up and alienating their own members. Why do you think REV. Barry Lynn is the head of People United for Separation of Church and State? He is smart enough to know that when church and state are mixed, both sides lose and lose badly.

livius drusus · #13 05-07-2005, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canaan

Anyone know exactly what the pastor said? All I'm finding is what was said afterwards...and bitter ex church members tend to skew the facts at times.

The pastor has so far declined to comment on the actual events except to say ""the actions were not politically motivated." The story was a local one until it was picked up by bloggers this morning, and I have yet to see any information beyond what you see in the local news clip vm linked to above.

Quote:

Is it possible that he was talking about the different issues that the candidates represented and whether or not they agreed with scripture?

It's possible, but given the phrasing on the one comment the pastor did make, I would say there's little doubt that those members were actually asked to leave. The pastor doesn't say he didn't kick them out; he said he wasn't politically motivated in so doing.

Given the 40 non-doctrinally suspicious members who walked out over this, it seems likely the story is quite a shady one. We'll see as it unfolds, I'm guessing.

Quote:

And wasn't John Kerry visiting lots of churches during the campaign trying to gain support? How is that not using church for political reasons?

Candidates pitching their wares to a congregation is quite a bit different from the leader of that congregation actively campaigning for a candidate or a party to the exclusion of others. For one thing, candidates pay taxes.

Quote:

And yeah, the election was 7 months ago. Why are we just hearing about this now?

Um... Because it just happened.

Quote:

Maybe the media should pick this up and give the runaway bride a rest for a while.

I doubt it. Now that she's talking about her born again virgin fiance refusing to pork her before the wedding, I suspect that story will have even longer legs than we thought possible.

Ronin · #14 05-07-2005, 04:30 AM

Quote:

I doubt it. Now that she's talking about her born again virgin fiance refusing to pork her before the wedding, I suspect that story will have even longer legs than we thought possible.

Well that certainly would explain those eyes of hers.

Mystery solved.

Abdul Alhazred · #15 05-07-2005, 05:06 AM

I suspect there's more to this story than in the news reports.

Such as that Pastor Schmendrick already wanted to get rid of certain troublemaking libs already.

Now he found an excuse. He may have sacrificed his church's tax exempt status in the process.

Ronin · #16 05-07-2005, 05:24 AM

Here's some additional information from the Biblical Recorder:

Deacon Frank Lowe

from the article ~

The remaining members decided that if another church wrote for the letters of those who left, East Waynesville would reply saying they had left in bad standing. Members also discussed changing the church bylaws to state that all members had to sign a statement saying they supported the pastor's political views, Rash said.

viscousmemories · #17 05-07-2005, 05:57 AM

More info - Oops, same link as Ronin's. :blush:

Quote:

A Baptist deacon says he and eight other members of East Waynesville Baptist Church were removed from the church roll because they disagreed with the pastor's political views.

Frank Lowe said he had been a member of the church for 43 years. He said the pastor, Chan Chandler, said he wanted the church to be a politically active church, and that anyone who disagrees with his views should leave.

Chandler could not be reached for comment.

WLOS-TV in nearby Asheville reported that Chandler declined an interview but said, "the actions were not politically motivated."

The controversy at the church reached a high point the Monday night, May 2, when the pastor invited all church members to a deacons' meeting. Lowe said at the beginning of the meeting, the pastor said anyone who didn't agree with his political views should leave.

Lowe said he, his wife, Thelma and seven others left. The pastor then called the church into conference and congregation voted to terminate the membership of those who left, Lowe said.

Among those dismissed were three deacons, he said.

Godwhacker · #18 05-08-2005, 03:11 AM

Hey, wait until the networks get ahold of it! -

On the next episode of "Survivor: Southern Baptist Church" -

Minister: "Mary, your neighbor Sarah says that you have an autographed photo of Hillary Clinton in your study"

Mary: "Well, I met her in an airport..."

Minister: "And what's this on your coffeetable!", "a copy of 'Our Bodies, Ourselves'?"

Mary: "Its got a great home remedy for cramps"

Minister: "Mary, I'm sorry, the congregation has spoken"

Mary: "I'm voted off?"

Minister: "Nope, we're thinkin' burned at the stake!"

On the real side, I just read on CNN.com that the ousted members are getting an attorney. However, it also said that all congregation members signed some kind of form saying that they would agree to the political views of the pastor.

I think its kind of ironic, Protestants separated from the Catholics partly to get rid of an autocratic system (the Pope and the gang). Now they are having members sign "allegiance forms"? Whats next? Something like Monty Python's old skit about "The Church Police"!

John Carter · #19 05-08-2005, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwhacker

I think its kind of ironic, Protestants separated from the Catholics partly to get rid of an autocratic system (the Pope and the gang). Now they are having members sign "allegiance forms"? Whats next? Something like Monty Python's old skit about "The Church Police"!

Autocratic Protestant churches are nothing new. The Amish and Mennonites, among others, practice what they call "shunning", for example. In this centuries old custom, anyone who has transgressed against the church is turned out of the community and completely ignored, as if they were no longer alive.

Ronin · #20 05-08-2005, 06:38 PM

"a great misunderstanding." ~ Radical Cleric Chan Chandler.

Yeah...his own.

What a dingleberry.

:eek:

inland wave · #21 05-08-2005, 08:30 PM

I've been reading these clips and that preacher needs to be taken off the pulpit and find some other line of work. These people have committed no sin, have not broken any church doctrine, or covenant. Who does he think he is GOD????
These people should receive a public apology from the top of the Baptist community and it should end with a groveling preacher. A big misunderstanding? Somehow I doubt that. Man this pisses me off. :fuming:

Ronin · #22 05-09-2005, 04:06 PM

Update:

"Bawk..bawk...bawk!" ~ Chan Chandler

from the article:

The Rev. Chan Chandler didn't directly address the controversy during the service at East Waynesville Baptist Church but issued a statement afterward through his attorney saying the church does not care about its members' political affiliations.

"No one has ever been voted from the membership of this church due to an individual's support or lack of support for a political party or candidate," he said.

Nine members said they were ousted during a church gathering last week by about 40 others because they refused to support President Bush. They attended Sunday's service with their lawyer and many supporters.

"Those poor, deluded 49 members who left got it all wrong, you see...heh, heh, heh...it's all better now."

<turns to attorney and whispers>

How was that?

<attorney checks tax laws...>

viscousmemories · #23 05-09-2005, 06:29 PM

Even Billy Graham's son expressed concern about this in an interview on Fox News last night. He said that issues like abortion are moral issues, not political, and that whether someone votes Democratic or Republican should have nothing to do with their membership in the church.

ChuckF · #24 05-09-2005, 07:55 PM

I've been talking to my family in Waynesville, and this is quite the little scandal. My cousin even knows the douchebag pastor. Most of the family that stayed in that backwards little hooterville is quite fundamentalist, so I'm not sure I want to hear their real opinions on this. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure none of them vote.

canaan · #25 05-09-2005, 11:54 PM

hmm, looks like he might have been in the wrong after all. Still haven't seen anything on the news...but I don't watch the news much so that could explain it. churches have split over even more minor issues than this before. Coffee drinking, tie wearing, wearing jewelry or blue jeans...long hair vs. short hair...I could go on.

I'm not sure how I feel about Churches being tax exempt anyway. I know it is a non-profit org...but it could also be seen as taking money to keep your mouth shut.

We had a couple leave our church over the last election. They were democrats. Bitter folks. Not just during the election but all the time. To hear their side of the story..the pastor said that anyone who voted for John Kerry was going to hell. haha!! Well, I was there. He didn't say that. People hear what they want to hear. Not saying that happened here but I know it happens. Can't please everyone.