An eye-opener for the ears

[mickthinks]

I've just been listening to this despatch from Owen Bennet-Jones, the BBC's man in Pakistan:
BBC NEWS | Turning to the Taleban in Pakistan
... in which he shows how badly the US is losing the hearts and minds of troubled Pakistan in the 'war against terror'.

This is perhaps a good opportunity to plug the little jewel in BBC radio's thoughtful output that is "From Our Own Correspondent". Here's their webpage where you can listen to other despatches from Saturday's broadcast, (the 79 year old Bar Mitzvah boy is also well worth a listen) or indeed, subscribe to the weekly podcast.

Mick

[mickthinks]

BBC From Our Own Correspondent | Checking out of 'Hotel America'

The BBC's correspondent in the USA, Justin Webb, is moving on after a 7 year stint, and has filed this last radio dispatch. It's an affectionate but warts-and-all pen portrait of the Union, and I'd be interested in hearing what you guys make of it.

[Qingdai]

I read it, as I don't like listening to radio on computer.
BBC NEWS | Programmes | From Our Own Correspondent | Checking out of 'Hotel America'

I expect (in the case of the house buying) that many do expect perfection in a house. Maybe because so many of our houses are expected to last a short period of time and are built that way.

I can't comment on route 17, as I've never been out that way. I don't know if he said anything more in his radio broadcast than the written article. He didn't say anything particularly controversial to me.

[Ensign Steve]

Originally Posted by Qingdai

I expect (in the case of the house buying) that many do expect perfection in a house. Maybe because so many of our houses are expected to last a short period of time and are built that way.

Originally Posted by The Article

This means - as we English know, having grown up with rattling windows and mouldy grouting - that a home will be imperfect.

I'm sure it's full of Old World Charm, but I'm allergic to mo(u)ld and I'd rather not pay to heat and cool the entire neighborhood. How American of me?

Edit: Anyway, I don't see that as a difference between English and American. I think it's more whether you are trying to sell an old house or a modern one. You want a modern house to look shiny and new. You want an old house to look classic and charming. We have plenty of old and moldy houses here, too, if that's what he's into. But apparently it wasn't when he bought his house in the suburbs, so what did he expect?

Originally Posted by The Article

They do not make such allowances in America. the only American suburb in which I have any experience buying or selling a home.

[livius drusus]

As I read it, my mind turns to our house in London which is actually falling down - somebody omitted to prop up the middle when an arch was cut in a downstairs room 100 years ago - but which is still eminently saleable.

The English understand that we are all falling down. Dust to dust, we intuit. Americans do not. They have not got there yet.

Here's hoping we never do, then, because I think holding up unrepaired structural damage to historical properties as a badge of old world sophistication is absurd and offensive. That's how you get to this in a few generations.

[Miisa]

That's what smancy-fancy democracy does. At least during feudalism the upper classes could afford to keep their castles nice!

I read the same article a few days ago. It read to me as a love-letter to America, so the whiff of defensiveness I think I smell in the air seems a little odd.

[livius drusus]

I'm not defensive about the America stuf. I'm pissed off about that guy's house being a step away from collapse and him copping a world-weary fatalism about it like it's a cultural thing instead of an intentional decision to leave the mess for someone else to clean up.

My house will celebrate its centennial next year and I hope when I leave it it will be good to go for another 100 years.

[Sock Puppet]

Actually, the aspects of America that he says contribute to its greatness are the very things that get me depressed if I dwell on them, and pining for an escape abroad. And most of what he says is a "fair cop," as it were. I would have to spend some time in London to be convinced it's so much better here (although I guess I'm too American to consider buying a house with failing structural integrity).

[Miisa]

I suspect he is exaggerating quite a bit. Someone did something to the building 100 years ago that was unwise and would not be permitted today, but as it has managed to stand since then, I doubt it is actually falling down, and has probably been kept up despite its, um, infirmity, like any other building. Sure, they could tear down the house and build a new one, but the reasons why one does not do that might be a cultural thing rather than a choice.

I always felt Americans have a strong cultural aversion to euthanizing pets, maybe it can be seen as a building equivalent of that. The house is fine, just old and grumpy.

[mickthinks]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

... I think holding up unrepaired structural damage to historical properties as a badge of old world sophistication is absurd and offensive.

LOL Me too, liv. But I didn't see anyone doing that so I'm not sure why you mention it here?

Originally Posted by Miisa

I read the same article a few days ago. It read to me as a love-letter to America, so the whiff of defensiveness I think I smell in the air seems a little odd.

[Ensign Steve]

Originally Posted by Miisa

That's what smancy-fancy democracy does. At least during feudalism the upper classes could afford to keep their castles nice!

I read the same article a few days ago. It read to me as a love-letter to America, so the whiff of defensiveness I think I smell in the air seems a little odd.

I probably sound defensive, but mostly I'm irritated that he's supposedly presenting a "What's different about America from England" retrospective, but he's painting America with a broad brush based upon his limited experience. Without re-reading the article, I believe he said he is from South London, and he lived in the suburbs while staying here. He might as well write "What's different about a suburb and a city" since that's really all he's pointing out.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Miisa

I suspect he is exaggerating quite a bit. Someone did something to the building 100 years ago that was unwise and would not be permitted today, but as it has managed to stand since then, I doubt it is actually falling down, and has probably been kept up despite its, um, infirmity, like any other building. Sure, they could tear down the house and build a new one, but the reasons why one does not do that might be a cultural thing rather than a choice.

I always felt Americans have a strong cultural aversion to euthanizing pets, maybe it can be seen as a building equivalent of that. The house is fine, just old and grumpy.

You don't have to tear down the house. You just have to replace the structural beam. Harry Truman had the entire White House peeled away like an onion to replace the rotting wood structure with steel then put it all back together again. If you care, you make it happen.

I'm not sure where you get the euthanizing pets thing from. I would say the vast majority of pets are euthanized when it gets to that point. I know very few people whose pets died at home.

[Adam]

The difference between America and wherever liv is really from is that the majority of the people I've known whose pets have died have had them die at home.

[Miisa]

Yes, I'd say he is largely painting an image of what he saw in suburbia, and even says so. He was talking about his experience there, and wrote about what he knew.
"In more than seven years of life in America, I have come to value - to love, actually - the stolid, sunny, unchallenging, simple virtuousness of the American suburban psyche."

I also stayed in suburbia when I was in the states, and found myself nodding several times when reading his words.
The perspective may be limited, but it is what he had as a reference point.

Defensiveness is all right, I was just a little puzzled. But I guess it is understandable.

[livius drusus]

OMG EUTHANASIA RESISTANCE ITT

[Adam]

I dunno if it's defensiveness, as such. I pretty much agree with Sock. The things the author highlights are mostly things I actually don't like about America, and I thought the "Europeans buy houses like this, but Americans buy houses like THIS" bit was silly.

ETA: Maybe this is a better way to put it: it's not his portrayal of America that gets me, it's his portrayal of the UK. I'm very skeptical that ya'll, as a general rule, live in houses that are falling apart around you without concern or the belief that they are fixable. I get that he's being all metaphorical and shit, but it's a silly metaphor.

[Ensign Steve]

Originally Posted by Miisa

Yes, I'd say he is largely painting an image of what he saw in suburbia, and even says so. He was talking about his experience there, and wrote about what he knew.

I understand that, which is why I fixed his quote when he said "they don't make allowances for that in America" or whatever it was he said.

PS: I also think it's funny when foreigners refer to the US as "America".

[Miisa]

I just got the impression that adding the beam would be difficult to the point of it being unnecessary, but then I don't know any more about his house than what he wrote, which was (deliberately) bleak, so I don't know.

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I'm not sure where you get the euthanizing pets thing from. I would say the vast majority of pets are euthanized when it gets to that point. I know very few people whose pets died at home.

Yeah, that analogy was a little far-fetched, but you actually illustrated my point with the "when it gets to that point". I meant more in the sense of not wanting to kill animals that are ok but no longer wanted, and instead kept in shelters or released to the wild or whatever. Or animals that have serious injuries but are still viable (doggie wheelchairs, anyone?) Brits, on the other hand, are reluctant to destroy a house if it is still possible to live in it.

[Miisa]

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

PS: I also think it's funny when foreigners refer to the US as "America".

Yes, also I have come back to that nasty old habit which I thought I had ditched years ago. Off the wagon, it seems.

[mickthinks]

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

Without re-reading the article, I believe he said he is from South London, and he lived in the suburbs while staying here. He might as well write "What's different about a suburb and a city" since that's really all he's pointing out.

I think you shoud reread the article, ES. You're taking issue with your misconception of it rather than the article as written.

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

PS: I also think it's funny when foreigners refer to the US as "America".

Like many foreigners, I have a habit of doing that. Is it considered wrong in some, or all circumstances? Sondheim and Bernstein wrote "I like to be in America"—but they put those words into the mouths of immigrants.

[Ensign Steve]

It's not the whole article I have beef with, just that one part where he said such and such about America. I actually think it's a pretty sweet article.

Originally Posted by The Article

This means - as we English know, having grown up with rattling windows and mouldy grouting - that a home will be imperfect.

They do not make such allowances in America.

It's patently false. I am in the market for a house right now (in America), and there are plenty of old, charming, big houses in the country that are absolutely beautiful, but that I am not considering because of the energy costs and my allergies.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Miisa

Yeah, that analogy was a little far-fetched, but you actually illustrated my point with the "when it gets to that point". I meant more in the sense of not wanting to kill animals that are ok but no longer wanted, and instead kept in shelters or released to the wild or whatever. Or animals that have serious injuries but are still viable (doggie wheelchairs, anyone?)

Well, US shelters euthanize millions of animals a year. As much as individuals may be resistant to killing their pets when they no longer want them or can keep them, pet euthanasia is certainlly institutionally enshrined.

But is this euthanasia-at-will attitude really a common one in Europe? The French and British in particular have a reputation of being seriously dedicated to their pets, more so than to people, even.

Brits, on the other hand, are reluctant to destroy a house if it is still possible to live in it.

Yeah but that's a false dichotomy. You can repair what's wrong while you live in it.

[Watser?]

Btw: The new US correspondent for the BBC is the old Europe correspondent. Here is his final article on Europe: BBC - Mark Mardell's Euroblog: A final essay on Europe

I thought this bit was particularly insightful (although I had figured out as much for myself anyway):

But the deep roots of the British problem with Europe are in our attitude to World War II. We British don't quite get the horror of this past.

...

Our view of Europe is defined by "the few" and "our finest hour" - heroism that paid off, rather than by shame. The shame of being the defeated bad guys, the shame of conquest and invasion, the shame of collaboration.

Take a Flemish friend of mine. His great-uncle was a member of the resistance, he stashed guns under the floorboards of his uncle's farmhouse, to fight the Nazis. Pretty heroic, huh? Well the Nazis called on him to give himself up to certain death, and because he didn't, my friend's uncle and grandfather were tortured and sent to work camps, where they died a few weeks before the war ended. The rest of the family barely talked to this "hero" until the day he died. And this is just one among thousands, millions of such stories of moral complexity. And it's why Belgians, French, Germans, Italians may not always like the actual EU any more than sceptical Brits, but why, to them, the ideal of a political Europe is something precious.

[mickthinks]

ES

You say "It's patently false" and then describe, as if it were a counter-example, an aspect of the US property market Webb hasn't denied. He didn't say there are no old houses on the market in the US, and he didn't mention allergy-sufferers either.

He said, admittedly with predictable journalistic hyperbole, that you Americans do not make allowances for scars and imperfections left by previous owners when you are buying a house. You say you aren't making such allowances. Where's the contradiction?

[Miisa]

Thanks for that, Watser. It is a point I have heard in various forms before; the value of a peaceful, co-operative Europe. The Brits are nearing a milennium(!) since the last successful invasion of the British Isles (by others), and the unease might not bee as deeply engraved into their hides.