Two Minutes Hate

[lisarea]

For all those little hates that don't really merit their own threads.

Today, the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office and the Humane Society of the United States.

(I already posted the first one in a different thread. I don't care! READ IT TWICE!)

[Ensign Steve]

This is old but it still fills me with two minutes hate.

Princess Sparkle Pony's Photo Blog: Greenpeace Interns: Bad for the Environment

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by lisarea

For all those little hates that don't really merit their own threads.

Today, the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office )

WTF? I hope that judge drops the fucking hammer on that department!

[lisarea]

13-Year-Old Girl Commits Suicide After Classmates Spread Nude Photos : The Curvature

The display of these kinds of attitudes went beyond words, though; they were also shown in actions. Hope Witsell was punished severely for taking the photograph. She was grounded for the summer. She was suspended from the first week of school. She lost her position as student adviser. And when another boy coerced her into sending another photograph, and she complied out of fear, she was again treated as a culprit rather than a victim
[...]
As for the boys who demanded the second photo, the girl who originally forwarded the first photo, the girls and boys who harassed Hope in the hallways, chased her, taunted her, and made her life a living hell … there is not a single word indicating that they faced any consequences for their actions.

[MonCapitan2002]

That blog posting leaves me incandescent with rage. That poor girl did not deserve what happened to her and had the system not treated her has a culprit instead of the victim of malicious actions on the part of her peers, she might still be alive today.

[The Lone Ranger]

“She didn’t blame it on anybody,” said Rebecca Knowles, 14. “She realized it was her fault for sending them in the first place.

She behaved foolishly, but the bullying and harassment that ensued was in no way justified by one foolish mistake on her part.

Apparently, she had some friends who tried to protect her. When I was in high school, if a student died, there was usually an assembly held shortly thereafter. The point of the assembly was for people to say nice things about the deceased, and to achieve some degree of closure.

I hope the school holds such an assembly. And I hope at least one of her friends speaks. And I hope that (s)he makes all involved realize just how petty and cruel they have been. As adults, we tend to romanticize childhood, but we forget at our peril -- few creatures are capable of such indifference and outright cruelty as are adolescent humans.


And the students who harassed her going to be punished? If not, why not? Are the boys who all but forced her to provide another photo going to be punished? They sure as heck should be.

[Qingdai]

Oh, I've got one.

"U.S. Army Specialist Alexis Hutchinson, a single mother, is being threatened with a military court-martial if she does not agree to deploy to Afghanistan, despite having been told she would be granted extra time to find someone to care for her 11-month-old son while she is overseas."

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/23140

http://news.aol.com/main/nc/article/...ment-to/769226

[Megatron]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

She behaved foolishly, but the bullying and harassment that ensued was in no way justified by one foolish mistake on her part.

Apparently, she had some friends who tried to protect her. When I was in high school, if a student died, there was usually an assembly held shortly thereafter. The point of the assembly was for people to say nice things about the deceased, and to achieve some degree of closure.

I hope the school holds such an assembly. And I hope at least one of her friends speaks. And I hope that (s)he makes all involved realize just how petty and cruel they have been. As adults, we tend to romanticize childhood, but we forget at our peril -- few creatures are capable of such indifference and outright cruelty as are adolescent humans.


And the students who harassed her going to be punished? If not, why not? Are the boys who all but forced her to provide another photo going to be punished? They sure as heck should be.

I agree with you, and I do think it's absolutely horrible what happened to this girl, but fucking christ...

How many times do I have to say it: If you don't want everyone in the fucking world seeing it (it meaning pretty much anything), DO NOT SEND IT ELECTRONICALLY! (Seriously. The first rule of military network security: "Nothing is secure!")

Not that I'm defending/excusing the assholes that made her life a living hell, but an ounce of common sense could have prevented a ton of shit here. Why aren't we teaching that?

Also, the writer of that blog seems to almost condone "sexting" and not even want to face the issue that, while this girl is certainly the victim here, the wolves still couldn't have come in if she hadn't opened the door.

Edit: She's even got a message up that any mention of such will be answered with deletions and bans - in a message criticizing people for not being able to discuss the issue intelligently. What a crock of shit.

[lisarea]

She was thirteen years old. Thirteen. A middle schooler. A child. That's a fucking horrible age for girls. They wake up one day, and all of a sudden, they're not kids anymore. They get rushed with hormones that they're supposed to have some preternatural ability to control, and they're also supposed to navigate the adult world like adults. Nobody expects anything like that from boys until they're well into their thirties or so.

So not only does everyone expect girls to make responsible adult decisions, but they're supposed to be able to predict and prevent sexual harassment and violence as well? Why aren't the kids who distributed the pictures or the boys who harassed her (reported to be in their late teens) in jail right now, waiting for their trials?

Most of the kids who passed the pictures around were children too, but the big difference is that their actions were malevolent. Hers weren't. And the fucking victim blaming came from the adults.

The fact that she took her shirt off for a boy doesn't mean she's fair game. It doesn't make it OK to distribute what is legally considered 'child pornography,' or to sexually intimidate a child (which, in many cases, fits the legal definition of sexual assault). How the fuck is that her fault?

And you're dead fucking wrong about the wolves. They come no matter what you do. And the reason they do is because of attitudes just like yours. Wear the wrong thing, act the wrong way, or just be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and you are responsible for someone else's acts of violence? That's fucking disgusting. It really is.

Remember: She didn't hurt anyone with her actions. At worst, it was ill-advised, but only because of disgusting puritan double-standards like yours, by which females displaying any type of sexual behavior are asking to be victimized.

And again, this was a child. Children frequently do things without fully thinking them through, and at her age, she had little experience with how the world works. Kids tend to think the world is fair, and haven't been fully indoctrinated into the sort of bullshit you're spewing here.

But even if she were an adult, what she did didn't hurt anyone. The fault lies entirely with those who distributed the pictures without her consent, with the older boys who terrorized her, and with the adults who chose to punish her rather than those who actually did something wrong--who actually did something to hurt another person.

Edit: She's even got a message up that any mention of such will be answered with deletions and bans - in a message criticizing people for not being able to discuss the issue intelligently. What a crock of shit.

No, that's a crock of shit.

I don't blame bloggers--especially those who post about about sexual violence--for moderating victim blaming comments. It's always the same disgusting, pointless bullshit. Always. Read some unmoderated comments about rape or harassment or pretty much any 'women's' issues sometime. It's fucking disgusting. Everyone's heard the disruptive shit about how women ask or deserve to be harassed and raped. Those kinds of things get moderated for the same reason that Jewish blogs would moderate Neo-Nazi trolling.

Nobody is required to provide those fucking gibbons with an anonymous podium for their bullshit.

[Kael]

Wear the wrong thing, act the wrong way, or just be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and you are responsible for someone else's acts of violence? That's fucking disgusting. It really is.

Exactly. One doesn't punish the victim of a mugging, even if they were stupid enough to wear their most expensive jewelry in the worst part of town. No one is responsible for the actions of her harassers save the harassers themselves. Even aside from the tragic double-standard that is so often part of the problem, even pretending that the victim in whatever situation did go out of their way to incite, it still wouldn't matter. Incitement is no excuse.

I want to double-thank your post, lisarea.

[The Man]

I don't disagree that she's clearly the victim here at all, but I do think it can't be repeated enough that if you don't want people to see an image, you shouldn't send it to anyone (or really, even take the picture in the first place). I don't think Megatron was trying to say that the girl deserved anything that happened to her; he's just saying that if she hadn't sent the image, none of it would have happened, and therefore the rest of us can learn a lesson from tragedy. That doesn't mean she's a horrible person or that she's in any way responsible for their actions; she was thirteen, it's not like she could be expected to make rational adult decisions, and the wolves obviously are wolves and deserve every bit of condemnation they've been given. He's just saying their actions could have been likely averted, in the same way the hypothetical mugging Kael mentioned can be likely averted by not wearing expensive jewelry in the worst part of town.

but hey, maybe I misread his post, I dunno. Obviously if she hadn't done that they'd probably have found something else to give her hell over as well, but again, I don't think Megatron meant to imply otherwise.

[lisarea]

Oh, I don't think he's saying she deserved it, either, mostly just because I know Megatron's a good guy.

And obviously, she shouldn't have done it. But that can be addressed the same way you teach kids not to help the guy in the van find his puppy. Let them know that there are bad people out there who do bad things, and you have to protect yourself from them. You can do that without shaming the victims, and without perpetuating the notion that they're at fault for what happened to them.

Her friend says she 'realized' it was entirely her fault, so both the victim and her friend apparently believed it. And it's exactly that attitude that's responsible for the whole thing.

[Megatron]

Originally Posted by lisarea

She was thirteen years old. Thirteen. A middle schooler. A child. That's a fucking horrible age for girls. They wake up one day, and all of a sudden, they're not kids anymore. They get rushed with hormones that they're supposed to have some preternatural ability to control, and they're also supposed to navigate the adult world like adults. Nobody expects anything like that from boys until they're well into their thirties or so.

I realize a huge double standard exists here, and always has, but that's really not the point I was making, and I can only hope you see that.

So not only does everyone expect girls to make responsible adult decisions, but they're supposed to be able to predict and prevent sexual harassment and violence as well? Why aren't the kids who distributed the pictures or the boys who harassed her (reported to be in their late teens) in jail right now, waiting for their trials?

Because no one treats this sort of harassment like the crime it is, I think we all agree here.

Most of the kids who passed the pictures around were children too, but the big difference is that their actions were malevolent. Hers weren't. And the fucking victim blaming came from the adults.

I realize that.

The fact that she took her shirt off for a boy doesn't mean she's fair game. It doesn't make it OK to distribute what is legally considered 'child pornography,' or to sexually intimidate a child (which, in many cases, fits the legal definition of sexual assault). How the fuck is that her fault?

I never said it was.

And you're dead fucking wrong about the wolves. They come no matter what you do. And the reason they do is because of attitudes just like yours. Wear the wrong thing, act the wrong way, or just be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and you are responsible for someone else's acts of violence? That's fucking disgusting. It really is.

WHOA. Stop the fucking boat.

First off, the illegal distribution of child pornography started with her. Not the second time when she was harassed into doing it, the first time when she did it of her own volition.

Second, I never assigned any blame or said she was responsible for any of the shit that happened. I said that if she hadn't taken pictures of her tits and sent them over a cell phone, no one would have been able to send them around and use them to harass her. Or, to use a direct quote,

Originally Posted by Megatron

an ounce of common sense could have prevented a ton of shit here.

Is it her fault what happened afterward? I'm fairly sure we all agree that it's not.

Finally, "attitudes like mine"? What the fuck? What attitude in particular? Is it wrong somehow that I think 13-year-old girls shouldn't be sending nude pictures over cell phones? Are you really fucking saying that? Because other than that, I've pretty much agreed with everything said in this thread, and I'm just as pissed as anyone else that no one is doing anything about the asshats that drove this girl to suicide.

This isn't the same as "wearing the wrong thing" or "acting the wrong way".

Remember: She didn't hurt anyone with her actions. At worst, it was ill-advised, but only because of disgusting puritan double-standards like yours, by which females displaying any type of sexual behavior are asking to be victimized.

You certainly have a knack for incendiary language. That worked me up to the point of xanax.

Double-standards? Are you fucking serious? I'd say the exact same thing if you reversed the genders here.

The "puritan" part I'll eat, at least a little of it. I honestly don't think anyone in their right mind (and yes I realize she was a kid, god dammit) would be sending naked pictures out in the first place. Call it puritanism, call it xenophobia, whatever gets you off.

Also, of course she didn't hurt anyone, but if there's one thing I've learned in the age of identity theft and fraud, it's to be extremely prudent with what you put out on the wire. Names, numbers, naked pictures, whatever.

My point before was that no one is telling the kids about this. Instead, they're just handing them the keys to the world wide network and saying "have fun!" - It's a lot like giving them the keys to your car without teaching them how to drive it.

And again, this was a child. Children frequently do things without fully thinking them through, and at her age, she had little experience with how the world works. Kids tend to think the world is fair, and haven't been fully indoctrinated into the sort of bullshit you're spewing here.

But even if she were an adult, what she did didn't hurt anyone. The fault lies entirely with those who distributed the pictures without her consent, with the older boys who terrorized her, and with the adults who chose to punish her rather than those who actually did something wrong--who actually did something to hurt another person.

I'm not arguing that at all.

No, that's a crock of shit.

I don't blame bloggers--especially those who post about about sexual violence--for moderating victim blaming comments. It's always the same disgusting, pointless bullshit. Always. Read some unmoderated comments about rape or harassment or pretty much any 'women's' issues sometime. It's fucking disgusting. Everyone's heard the disruptive shit about how women ask or deserve to be harassed and raped. Those kinds of things get moderated for the same reason that Jewish blogs would moderate Neo-Nazi trolling.

Nobody is required to provide those fucking gibbons with an anonymous podium for their bullshit.

That's some fucking gonzo hyperbole there, and if you're actually comparing me to that, then fuck you. Seriously.

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by Megatron

That's some fucking gonzo hyperbole there, and if you're actually comparing me to that, then fuck you. Seriously.

I guess you didn't read lisarea's last post then:

Originally Posted by lisarea

Oh, I don't think he's saying she deserved it, either, mostly just because I know Megatron's a good guy.

[Megatron]

Ah, alright. No, I didn't see that. I actually started writing that reply last night, and I had to leave it and go lay down before I had a panic attack from how pissed off I was at the gross misrepresentation in the post before.

My apologies then, Lisa.

[BrotherMan]

IT'S TOO LATE SHE'S ALREADY SENT THE FACE MAWLING TO YOUR HOME

[Megatron]

*runs for the fucking hills*

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Megatron

First off, the illegal distribution of child pornography started with her. Not the second time when she was harassed into doing it, the first time when she did it of her own volition.

Yeah, and she was punished pretty severely for it. Not as severely as some kids who've been criminally charged; but there's no mention in that story of anyone else getting any kind of reprimand or punishment for what they did. Just her.

Originally Posted by Megatron

Finally, "attitudes like mine"? What the fuck? What attitude in particular? Is it wrong somehow that I think 13-year-old girls shouldn't be sending nude pictures over cell phones? Are you really fucking saying that? Because other than that, I've pretty much agreed with everything said in this thread, and I'm just as pissed as anyone else that no one is doing anything about the asshats that drove this girl to suicide.

Yes, attitudes like yours. Not you as a person, but that attitude that you and many or most other people share to varying degrees. They're pervasive, and we're all influenced by them. The girl in the story was when she blamed herself for the harassment, as is her friend who was quoted, the administrators who punished her so severely, and everyone who harassed her.

The attitude pisses me off. I hate it. And I think we all probably have to some extent. It's the default. It's not until you stop and think about it and examine your own attitudes that you can start to acknowledge it and realize what a horrible thing it is, and how completely it colors your perceptions.

I don't hate you. You're a good guy. I hate that one thing you think sometimes. I hate that really fucking hard. I hate it when anyone thinks it, including me.

That's some fucking gonzo hyperbole there, and if you're actually comparing me to that, then fuck you. Seriously.

I didn't compare you to that. I'm explaining why sites like that moderate comments. If you needed to stop and take a Xanax because of something I said to you, imagine what it's like for women who've been sexually assaulted to have to see people excusing sexual harassment and blaming victims for the crimes committed against them.

Have you ever watched the show Intervention? I have, and one thing that really stands out for me is that I don't think I've seen one female addict on that show who hasn't been raped at least once. A lot of the men have too, but it seems to be almost universal for women with severe psychological problems. That's why you see, on feminist blogs, 'trigger warnings' for things like sexual violence.

It's because that is a very traumatic topic for a lot of women. Traumatic to the extent that it can trigger serious self-destructive behaviors and profoundly interfere with their ability to function. Women internalize the misogynistic attitudes about women's sexuality, too. That's one of the reasons rape victims overwhelmingly feel guilt and blame themselves for what happened to them; and it's probably the primary factor in sexual violence having such lasting psychological effects.

So for forums that cover topics such as that, I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to disallow comments that blame the victim and ultimately perpetuate rape culture.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was personally attacking you. I certainly didn't mean it that way, and I did go off into generalizations like the blog trolls, which I don't think you are. I'm just guessing you haven't seen the sorts of things that people say.* There really are a lot of violent, angry people out there who target women for abuse in forums like that.

I am genuinely sorry that what I said upset you. I realize it came off as pretty harsh.

Again, I don't hate you, and I don't think you're a violent hate troll.

* About 150 years ago or so, I made some dumb, not very funny post about how vowels were phallocentric, and how they should all be replaced with Y. Some feminist website emailed and asked me if they could use it, and I said OK. Some years later, I was ego-surfing for my name and came across it. And there, in the comments of this obviously tongue in cheek thing about vowels, was a death threat. Some guy saying he knew where I lived (or was gonna find out--I don't remember now) and was going to rape me to death or something like that. For a not very funny but obvious joke about vowels. That's a slightly off the rails example, but it's illustrative of the general tenor unmoderated forums like that tend to take.

[BrotherMan]

gyd thyt wyyld by y wyyrd wyrld ty lyvy yn yf wy lyst yll yyr vywyls.

(y'm mykyng cypytyl lyttyrs phyllycyntryc tyy)

[Ensign Steve]

God, that looks like hell. It's not even the right shape to be a vowel. How is y, with it's indecent stick poking out the bottom, less phallocentric than nice round, open vowels like o, a, and e? Oh shit, I think I just turned myself on.

[The Man]

Go ask the Welsh.

[Ensign Steve]

Young Pittsfield Township man struggles with sex offender label - AnnArbor.com

Reddit's really toying with my emotions this morning.

[lisarea]

Rod Parsley: Will You Help Me Take Back What the Devil Stole?

[Megatron]

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

Young Pittsfield Township man struggles with sex offender label - AnnArbor.com

Reddit's really toying with my emotions this morning.

Eh, a lot of people in This Thread are probably just fine with this kid getting screwed over.

[erimir]

I think that would be a bit uncharitable to say...