gay marriage

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by seebs

Point out their errors in terms of their own foundational beliefs.

As I have stated at least twice in this thread, any error in beliefs must be pointed out by fellow Christians. No believer will listen to a non-believer on doctrinal issues.

[fatherphil]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

Ah, but "taking shots" is counterproductive.

Golly, is there anything about hypocrisy in the gospels? If only I could ever get around to reading them, what with all my education...

is defensiveness part of the freethinker's creed?

[fatherphil]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

No believer will listen to a non-believer on doctrinal issues.

what stone is that carved into?

if those who want gay marriage continue along their current strategy, they might as well get their passports ready in my country. i'll do what i can but i'm sure i won't be able to be as effective as the organizations currently striving to have their will be done.

& adora, what do you think i want regarding this issue?

[PinkRose]

have viewed one time in the local paper a civil union. i have never seen otherwise or read of any gay marriage, would be interesting to read/photo?

[Beth]

Originally Posted by fatherphil

if those who want gay marriage continue along their current strategy, they might as well get their passports ready in my country. i'll do what i can but i'm sure i won't be able to be as effective as the organizations currently striving to have their will be done.

Are you saying that you feel that you are fighting the battle alone?

[fatherphil]

beth, i really have yet to get involved with any organization so i am on my own in a way. but to compound the problem, i've seen a combative attitude coming from the pro-same sex marriage camp that can only alienate the folks i feel could be instrumental in effecting a change.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by fatherphil

is defensiveness part of the freethinker's creed?

For pete's sake, fatherphil, don't be completely daft. My first post to you explicitly alluded to the role of red-letter gospel in the positions of churches who wish to marry same-sex couples, and the value of advancing those churches' claims to religious freedom. After a series of replies that managed only to miss the point, you finally come out with the clanger that supporters of the right to same-sex marriage should base this on the gospel -- and you load this up with a silly cheap shot, to boot.

I assure you that such foolishness is quite insufficient to provoke defensiveness from me. (Against what, after all? One wonders what point you imagine you've made that requires defense.) You're seeing disappointment, not defensiveness.

[fatherphil]

what are you dissappointed about. i took no shot.

[Beth]

Phil, I have not read the entire thread throughout because I have been a little busy, so I apologize if this has been mentioned. But could you explicitly offer a few examples of how the pro-gays marriage groups is combative- especially soley against the churches?

I understand that some of the civil rights meetings and speeches were conducted from the pulpit. Is there an abundance of preachers, especially, say, the baptist and fundamentalist or conservative sects willing to risk losing their flock by taking such a controversial position? What about those sects that basically try to drive out the sinners from their congregation? Or who tell them that they are bound by a spirit of homosexuality? Not taking a defensive toward you in any way. I appreciate your position. I just do not know that the sinners can influence the righteous.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by PinkRose

gay & marriage to me is anal period. if it is not accepted here go to where it is and stop shoving it down my throat?

That worked great for the Civil Rights movement. Just send the black people back to Africa, they can build their own buses and sit in the front of those.

there are more regular people than gay, but gay is in, so everyone is trying it?

Er, no. The number of gay people hasn't changed much.

The thing is... Gay marriage isn't being shoved down your throat unless you're being forced to marry a same-sex partner.

an odditiy once now popular the women don't bother me its the men i cannot figure out?

That should be your cue that what you have here is not any kind of moral response, just a biological squick. You don't like that particular activity. This is not a reason to form opinions beyond "I won't do that". Hey, I feel the same way about mushrooms. I can't see why anyone would ever eat them.

[Ari]

I think the fact that there aren't large protests and attempts to ban/give another name to Atheist marriage or Pagan marriage suggests it is less about the bible and more about a specific prejudice. If it really is about "sin" and the "sanctity of marriage" then I can't think of anything more sinful or sanctity destroying than being a non-believer or better yet an anti-believer.

If that is the case, then people aren't anti-gay because the bible says so, but use the bible as a way to justify their prejudice (even subconciously), in which case showing them they bible doesn't agree wont have much of an effect as it doesn't get to the root of the problem.

[PinkRose]

until it is passed it is illegal for people of the same sex to marry, they can do their thing but no certificate? not much i can do about that, its not my problem. Lesbians and Homos have been around forever, so why change the laws of life, just be happy the door is open. don't get bent i'm human too.

[scigirl]

Hello fatherphil, and allow me to jump in the middle of the discussion!

I think us using the bible to argue for homosexual rights misses the entire point. The United States, for example, is a secular nation governed by secular laws. Laws based on the bible have no business existing, period. I don't care how moral or immoral they are.

My argument is as follows: gays are not different than straights when it comes to matters of relationships/love/economic situation. Therefore there is no rational basis for denying them the same rights my boyfriend and I have simply because he has a penis and I don't.

If someone's religion prohibits homosexual sex, fine, don't have it. But if Christians need the secular government to enforce their own religious laws, that displays the weakness of their religion. They shouldn't need the law in the first place.

scigirl

[Beth]

Originally Posted by Ari

I think the fact that there aren't large protests and attempts to ban/give another name to Atheist marriage or Pagan marriage suggests it is less about the bible and more about a specific prejudice. If it really is about "sin" and the "sanctity of marriage" then I can't think of anything more sinful or sanctity destroying than being a non-believer or better yet an anti-believer.

I do not really understand this reasoning. So, atheist weddings are sinful and sanctity destroying? Oh, get you.

[Ari]

Yep, atheist weddings should be considered sinful according to the bible. The first commandment clearly shows that non belief or anti-belief is a sin. Marriage is the joining of two people in the eyes of God. Joining two people who break God's first commandment should be considered unholy.
But where are the protests?
Why do these christians go after gay marriage as being sinful because the bible says being gay is a sin, yet not atheist marriage? It clearly says being an atheist is a sin.

[fatherphil]

i was at a play where the church was depicted as the only enemy against gay marriage. now although political parties have been successful at rallying religious segments over this issue, the churched are not the only ones who disapprove of homosexuality much less same sex marriage.

i say work with the church to get them to pull their support from such political efforts if not to push for state sanctioning of gay marriage as a civil rights issue. bush, as a Christian, and cheney, as a father of a lesbian, should have supported gay marriage legislation. kerry, well who can figure out that. his actions were politically motivated as well.

& ari, i wouldn't want my daughter to marry an athiest but then i didn't want her doing alot of things.

[Beth]

You are so funny. Weddings have existed long before that little book of yours. Long before those commandments, as well.

[Ari]

Beth: If you were talking to me, you might want to know I'm not christian.
Edit: and that they point I was trying to show was that I think many people aren't against gays because the bible says so, but have their own prejudice and then use the bible as a tool to support it.

Phil: Who exactly are the other enemies against gay marriage? You didn't really specify anyone other than the church, except for political parties who are religiously motivated or motivated by getting the religious vote. In which case it points back to the church.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by PinkRose

until it is passed it is illegal for people of the same sex to marry, they can do their thing but no certificate?

Sure, same as interracial couples could do all along.

not much i can do about that, its not my problem. Lesbians and Homos have been around forever, so why change the laws of life, just be happy the door is open. don't get bent i'm human too.

The laws of life, we can't change. The laws of taxation, hospital visitation rights, estate tax... Those we can change.

[fatherphil]

Originally Posted by Ari

Phil: Who exactly are the other enemies against gay marriage? You didn't really specify anyone other than the church, except for political parties who are religiously motivated or motivated by getting the religious vote. In which case it points back to the church.

straights

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by fatherphil

straights

Care to qualify that generalization?

[Crumb]

Are you claiming that all nonreligious heterosexuals oppose gay marriage?

[Ari]

Yeah I wouldn't mind an explanation either.

Although I think we can safely assume it's wrong, even ignoring all the straight people here who support gay marriage, basic statistics can help. A quick search showed that the percentage of gay people in the US is between 2%-6% (depending on the survey) so lets just double that and say 12% of the US is gay. If straights are an enemy against gay marriage then we should be able to assume that support for gay marriage will never top 12%, yet it is much higher than 12%.

[Adora]

Originally Posted by fatherphil

& adora, what do you think i want regarding this issue?

Considering you're making statements like "Religion shouldn't change for people" and "Gays should prove to Christians that they're worthy enough to be accepted", you seem to be against allowing homosexuals be married in religious institutions. You haven't made any statements to my comments here otherwise, so if you're suggesting you aren't against them, stop being an wanky passive-aggressive ambiguous ass. Oh yeah. All straights are against gay marriage. Right. Sure.

[PinkRose]

unrealistic are we? bible my ass, gayness ins not happily accepted to some. lets call IT another avenue of the human race. if bulls screwed bulls there would never be milk, if women just wanted women NONE of us would be here.