General LGBTQIA issues thread

[ChuckF]

[koan]

Here's an issue I have that might have been brought up earlier: Discrimination by gays towards bisexuals. Trust me, it happens. I have friends that won't go to the club with me because they're afraid it would tarnish their hardcore pure status. Or they'll go but only if I have someone else to "hang out with" while I'm there.

Bi is really dissed by a large part of the community. They think we can't make up our minds and aren't pure.

A new report released by the San Francisco Human Rights Commission highlights the demonization of bisexuals from both the lesbian and gay community, as well as the straight community.

From disbelief of existence, to the branding of “slut,” the “B” is often invisible in LGBT, according to the report.

On top of that, one of the friends who has said that is worried because although she is pure gay, she's been in a threesome with a guy and now she is being told she's not gay enough. This criticism came from her girlfriend who... used to be married and has a kid. She told my friend that she had a dream where my friend was dating a guy who was really feminine and was really happy. "See? I knew it!" Says the girl as if her dream confirms reality.

I feel sorry for my friend because she actually worries about all that crap. If I ever hear anyone question whether I'm gay enough I just question how they decide on the line of accepting people no matter what gender they prefer. There is either an "acceptable" line or there isn't. If they don't want a line, don't draw one.

Though I don't really worry about it, that could be because I've never tried to join a gay softball team.

[koan]

My beef about "bi-phobia" is not to just say "oh, poor me, I'm so misunderstood," I'll admit to my own area of bias. I currently have no appreciation for men or women that feel they were born the wrong gender and think they have to have sex change operations.

I'm sure they have their reasons but we live in a world (if you're in one that lets you get the operation) where you can just fuck whoever you want. So what does it matter which hole or what sex organs you have? A lot of people don't like their noses. Or the size of their breasts. Some people who are crippled think they should have legs that work. Just because they can do a surgery that makes you look different doesn't mean they should. I think you should learn to live in and love the body you were given. Sure people can have breast implants... but they shouldn't. That dude with useless legs has a better argument. We just haven't (outside of Criminal Minds) found a way to switch his legs. But should we? Is it just self indulgent vanity or do people have a human right (see inalienable rights thread) to be surgically altered to suit their mind? I actually worked with a woman who used to be a gay man and she and her partner both got sex changed to be lesbians. Then they broke up. Now she's a lesbian who used to a be a gay man. See why I might struggle with this issue?

I'm admitting this is a flaw in my reasoning ability but at the moment I just see it as an issue of self loathing. The sex change operation, to me, doesn't actually make them a "real" woman or man it makes them someone with a vanity inspired enhancement surgery.

But I want to understand it. I mostly feel like a man in a woman's body but I'm satisfied with looking androgynous. So what gives?

[Demimonde]

Originally Posted by koan

My beef about "bi-phobia" is not to just say "oh, poor me, I'm so misunderstood," I'll admit to my own area of bias.

I have immense empathy towards that because of a personal experience.

I know a woman who is Bisexual. She broke from the majority of her friend base they were home schooled religious folks who could not understand her following her sexuality. She had a series of relationships with women that they could not or would not understand.

Later she fell in love with her roommate. A man. She wanted a family and loved him. When it came time to announce her engagement, her formally liberal friends abandoned her. Because she was "going straight." It was grotesque and painful for her.

I currently have no appreciation for men or women that feel they were born the wrong gender and think they have to have sex change operations.

I am sorry for you. There is a term for that and that is transphobia.

I'm sure they have their reasons but we live in a world (if you're in one that lets you get the operation) where you can just fuck whoever you want. So what does it matter which hole or what sex organs you have? A lot of people don't like their noses. Or the size of their breasts. Some people who are crippled think they should have legs that work. Just because they can do a surgery that makes you look different doesn't mean they should.

Um.... I am not sure that I follow you. If someone is crippled and there is a treatment that would help them they should avoid it?

If someone is born into a body that doesn't represent who they are, they should just fuck another person of whatever sex they like until they are okay with that?

Neither of those seem like viable options to me.

Additionally, your cultural experience is not mine. Many people do not live in a culture where they can "just fuck whoever you want" in their myriad of "holes." Not without cultural and legal repercussions.

I think you should learn to live in and love the body you were given.

That is nice, but we are not talking about you.

Sure people can have breast implants... but they shouldn't.

According to what? You? The Bible? If someone chooses to have breast implants, whether it is a woman who wishes to be more endowed, or whether it is a biological male aka "man" who wishes to be a woman it is not your business at all. It is their choice.

Period. End of statement.

That dude with useless legs has a better argument. We just haven't (outside of Criminal Minds) found a way to switch his legs. But should we? Is it just self indulgent vanity or do people have a human right (see inalienable rights thread) to be surgically altered to suit their mind?

While I am not familiar with the TV show you reference, I have to say, yes a person without legs who wishes to run should be free to to whatever it takes to achieve them. A person who is born with sexual organs which do not match their identity should be free to seek them.

That is not self indulgent, nor vanity. That is self preservation and individualized autonomy. Perhaps not what you would do with your autonomy, but autonomy never-the-less.

I actually worked with a woman who used to be a gay man and she and her partner both got sex changed to be lesbians. Then they broke up. Now she's a lesbian who used to a be a gay man. See why I might struggle with this issue?

Cool story bro. (I am only being half facetious.)

She is whatever she wanted to be/ wishes to be. You do not say whether or not she expressed regret over her transformation. I think that is the most important element, but yet I do not see you consider it at all. That is autonomy for you.

Even if she did regret it, one anecdote does not counter-act the experience of thousands of people. I have known many transfolk. Of all the myriad regrets I have heard them express over the years, sexual reassignment is not one I have ever heard.

I'm admitting this is a flaw in my reasoning ability but at the moment I just see it as an issue of self loathing. The sex change operation, to me, doesn't actually make them a "real" woman or man it makes them someone with a vanity inspired enhancement surgery.

I am curious, why the emphasis on vanity? As though that were a negative? Where does your onus on "vanity" come from?

Why should your definition of "reality" trump their personal experience?

Personally, I think that any trans person who has had their gender reassigned is a REAL whatever they want to be.

And if they "loathed" their prior state, yay for them for becoming what they always "SHOULD" have been. While we are throwing "shoulds" around.

But I want to understand it. I mostly feel like a man in a woman's body but I'm satisfied with looking androgynous. So what gives?

There is more to the world than your experience.

I identified greatly with the poetry of Walt Whitman and Alan Ginsberg as a young woman. (Gay males.) Yet, I had no desire for my own penis. On the other hand I do love cock. I questioned my sexuality when embarking into feminist literature. I experimented and found that I have no interest in female anatomy other than my own.

I am a straight, cis, woman.

I own that privilege. Had I wanted a penis of my own, had I wanted to experience cunnilingus from the oral side, things would have been different. I don't. I recognize that there are many who do.

When at a recent drag show, I didn't identify with the gay, lesbian, trans, bi, or queer folk. (Though I was tempted to in the last case. I debate with myself frequently on the necessity of gender. I still do feel it is a reality. One that exists and is a part of my experience.) I cheered instead for Ally. That is what I am.

[Clutch Munny]

koan, I think you're doing the right thing by writing out your reasoning about trans persons and holding your reasons at arm's length. When I read what you wrote, the pointless prescriptivism and prejudice really jumps out at me. With any luck, it will jump out at you, too.

Many times I have learned that my views or attitudes were indefensible just by writing or speaking my reasons. But I rarely went into the process with as clear and honest a sense of the contingency of my attitudes as you showed in your last post.

[livius drusus]

koan, you don't appear to realize that object choice (who you want to fuck) and identity (who you are) are two completely different things. You write about changing the latter based on the former and picking holes as if people define their gender based on their sexuality. Does the fact that you have been attracted to both men and women make you both a woman and a man? No, because your gender identity and your sexuality are not the same.

People form gender identities far before they become aware of sex, never mind determine what kind of people they wish to have sex with. Transgender people feel they have been born in the wrong body from earliest consciousness. In fact today we see more and more pre-pubescent children coming out as transgender and taking steps to prevent the hormonal changes of puberty. Whether they end up being attracted to men or women, whether they are gay are straight, is a whole different conversation and the least of their concerns at that point.

[lisarea]

I don't fully understand transgendered issues either. I just can't relate at all. I can speculate that if I had a penis and people were calling me a man, I might be pretty mad about that. I don't know, though. I can't really entirely conceive of such a thing.

I don't really know what gender is or what its effects are, but that's probably because I am cisgendered. I have never had to deal with identity issues or with being misgendered by other people, or with hating my body beyond getting a little mad at it sometimes when I'm sick or something. And a lot of transgendered people do have a deep and fundamental loathing of their genitals and their secondary sex characteristics. Not just an idea that it would be nice if something were tweaked here and there, but loathing.

And because I know I don't really understand it, I take people at their word that it's untenable to them.

And the thing is, I don't have to completely empathize with something to accept it. There are SO MANY THINGS about humangs that I don't understand at all that it's just a lot easier for me to take people at their word and accept that. It's not my business, and I am not the arbiter of what is and is not OK except as it affects me, and so far, it never has.

I don't have to have an opinion about everything. I can't have an informed opinion about everything. There isn't time. So I just believe what people say about their own experiences for the most part.

[Kael]

This is purely anecdotal, and not from a very broad sampling either, but: Nearly every transgendered person I've encountered, the story has been the same - what makes the difference in their lives is living and presenting as their self-identified gender, not any surgeries. Surgeries or lack thereof are intensely personal, in the sense of specific to the individual as well as private, and depend on a ton of factors for how far any procedure might go.

So, yeah, basically what everyone else has already said...

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by lisarea

And the thing is, I don't have to completely empathize with something to accept it. There are SO MANY THINGS about humangs that I don't understand at all that it's just a lot easier for me to take people at their word and accept that. It's not my business, and I am not the arbiter of what is and is not OK except as it affects me, and so far, it never has.

That's pretty-much my take. On a daily basis, I find myself confronted by behavior that I can't really empathize with or truly comprehend. It makes me realize that there's an awful lot about human behavior that I don't really understand.

But I figure that as long as the person in question isn't trying to force others to conform to his/her expectations of "proper" behavior, it's none of my business.

[maddog]

slight derail:

I appear to have missed out on the meme origin of "cool story, bro." Where does it come from and what does it mean?

#2902

[lisarea]

Know your meme says it's from Zoolander.

[The Man]

Bullied gay teen taken off life support after hanging self in schoolyard | The Raw Story

But there's no bullying epidemic, right?

[LadyShea]

I don't understand this at all

Bell had begged his parents to allow him to be home schooled and when that failed, he appealed to school administrators for help.
Raw Story ( Bullied gay teen taken off life support after hanging self in schoolyard | The Raw Story)

Why did that fail? If my 15 yo kid was begging me due to vicious bullying I would pull him out of the toxic environment immediately.

I don't want to blame the parents, at all, but I can't really think of any good reasons for them to deny his request. So I am very curious in a disappointed way at that decision

[S.Vashti]

Originally Posted by lisarea

(snip)

And the thing is, I don't have to completely empathize with something to accept it. There are SO MANY THINGS about humangs that I don't understand at all that it's just a lot easier for me to take people at their word and accept that. It's not my business, and I am not the arbiter of what is and is not OK except as it affects me, and so far, it never has.
(snip)

This exactly. You say you're Christian? Fine. You say you (want to be/are a) girl when you have male plumbing? Fine, too. Neither exclamations are significantly different-it's about what you believe, and my stance towards your belief.

[Vivisectus]

The local Spar down the road from Dublin's most famous gay bar kicks out two gay dudes for kissing.

Ireland: Gay couple kicked out of SPAR store by security guard for kissing - PinkNews.co.uk

Facebook responses on the spar page seems about 50/50 between people saying that that is not right and applause from homophobes. Then again - it seems Spar is taking most of the vicious Homophobia down, so I may be off there. Amazing how many people feel that public displays of affection between two men are threatening enough to require an immediate and violent response.

[Ari]

I have a decent amount of experience in both worlds, having walking with the Bi contingent in SF pride a few years ago, as well as having friends who identify as Bi, Trans, Bi and Trans, and a whole lot of other qualifiers.

Koan's two posts right together were quite interesting as she was right on about the discrimination against Bis* while showing similar discrimination against trans. Prejudice can hide so well that I often worry I'm being prejudice on other subjects without even realizing it.

Bi
The kinsey scale (Straight 0-6 gay) shows that not only can people be put on a flowing scale between completely hetero and completely homosexual but that gay people are more likely than hetero people to not be 100% homosexual. In my opinion this shows that once you start to question the heterosexual world you are more likely to realize likes and dislikes are a bit more complicated than you were taught. Unfortunately the prejudice gays have suffered has led to them picking up straight mainstream views about bisexuals because they spend so much time defending themselves that the defense makes up part of their identity. There is certainly an idea out there that you need to be a 'good gay' or you are letting down the cause, where good is defined more by a reaction against the prejudice than to being yourself.

Trans
Trans gets crap from all sides because it really brings into question many people's basic understandings of gender and sexuality. This quickly brings up insecurities that people weren't ready to deal with or avoiding.

We have culturally ingrained ideas that Men and Women are different, it's not uncommon for the media to talk about them as different species, or from different planets. The idea that someone can change from one to the other directly challenges this and says it's not that simple. That someone feels out of place in their body, let alone so much so that they want to change it can be seen as a challenge to our own gender and sexuality.
Really we change our bodies all the time, from hair color and cut to deciding what to wear completely obscuring our natural look to begin with. I sometimes wonder if our pets are looking at us like "Fucking pick a coat and stay with it already!" every time we change into something different.


*If you want to be cool and hip many bisexuals are using the term pansexual to acknowledge gender isn't binary.

[Demimonde]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

koan, I think you're doing the right thing by writing out your reasoning about trans persons and holding your reasons at arm's length. When I read what you wrote, the pointless prescriptivism and prejudice really jumps out at me. With any luck, it will jump out at you, too.

Many times I have learned that my views or attitudes were indefensible just by writing or speaking my reasons. But I rarely went into the process with as clear and honest a sense of the contingency of my attitudes as you showed in your last post.

This is very, very true. I have been able to let go of many ugly ideas and beliefs I have held over the years by that process.

That post was extremely honest and actually, in a way, brave. It can be hard to find your voice in such things. Many people lack the courage to even think about such issues, let alone explore them.

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

That's pretty-much my take. On a daily basis, I find myself confronted by behavior that I can't really empathize with or truly comprehend. It makes me realize that there's an awful lot about human behavior that I don't really understand.

For me, it honestly can make the world feel like a very alienating place. I am often mystified by people and their actions. The world can be such a wonderful place. People are capable of so much kindness and love. Yet there is so much pain and suffering. Why add to it? Why not work towards ameliorating suffering for ourselves and others?

Being and feeling differently can make you feel very alone. Which is why writing about it and talking about it and dialoguing about it with others can be such a help. Because we are never alone. Empathy and understanding can't happen in a vacuum.

But I figure that as long as the person in question isn't trying to force others to conform to his/her expectations of "proper" behavior, it's none of my business.

Exactly. I have to admit, that is kind of a trigger for me. Prescriptivism and should statements can get my back up in a hurry. As I see it, a great deal of pain and prejudice stems from that kind of mentality. It pushes all my buttons in the worst way.

Koan, if I was harsh in my response to you I apologize. I could have been kinder about it.

[Watser?]

I have always (well probably not always) found the whole binary male/female thing kinda weird. Especially how most groups tend to separate along those lines, for instance a class during break where the guys are on one side and the girls on the other without anyone else apparently even noticing that.

It's fascinating to me how there are categories in some cultures that sort of cross that binary border. I read an article the other day (not this one, can't find the one I saw) about Albania's 'sworn virgins': women who dress like men and are considered honorary men by the rest of society. The only condition is they should remain virgins. In Pakistan and India they have the hijra, men who dress and act like women. They are usually castrated, or at least that's how it used to be. So in both cases in order to cross the gender borders, they had to take sex/reproduction out of the equasion.

But in a way all this is reinforcing the binary division, rather than erasing it.

[ChuckF]

The last few posts in this thread touch on some profound issues of human sexuality. These are the questions that fundamentally shape who we are, how we love each other, and how we (mis)understand our brothers and sisters. If everyone thought about this and discussed it as modeled here, we would be better as a society.

Also, watch out Aunt Bea because HERE COMES GAYMER PYLE, Y'ALL

[Ymir's blood]

I thought that he came out a long time ago.

[Qingdai]

I don't understand how the boy from La Grande wasn't able to be home schooled either, we have a law that's pretty loose about home schooling, plus rural areas (which La Grande is one) have access to on line schooling.
Kid seemed pretty social, so there's that.

By the way, I fucking hate rural Oregon. Bullying for all sorts of things is the norm, Christians.

[koan]

I'm glad that my honesty was pointed out. I didn't mention my bias against transsexuals because I think I am right, or justified, I mentioned it because I demand brutal honesty from myself and from others around me. That's why I say I don't play well with others.

The point, if I have to pick one, is that the LBGT community (and whatever other letters have joined) need to recognize that everyone has bias. We're all human. I think it's important that a group has formed and bonded because it is causing a change in mainstream society that brings more personal freedom but I want to make sure that group doesn't pretend they are perfectly open. Nobody is perfect. Be as vigilant in your self correction as you are in your pursuit of correcting society.

People judge people. If you don't think you do then you aren't being honest. If you want to be accepted by everyone then make sure you are accepting everyone else just the same. Don't tolerate hate within your own community and be willing to recognize where you have problems.

I know that my bias is based on a too small sample size. I know that I am wrong. I'm bi so of course I'm happy being a man in a woman's body. I'd love myself either way. lol

But after I wrote my "beef" I searched myself to see where I was being unfair. If you do a thorough search you will always find something. We are just human. All we can ask of each other is to try better.

[Watser?]

The prejudice that gays have against bisexuals always reminds me of the tension between darker and lighter skinned African-Americans. Lighter skinned people can sometimes 'pass for white' and so (some) darker skinned people are afraid they might 'desert them' and blend into society, while for them that is not an option. Bisexuals can 'pass for straight'.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Qingdai

I don't understand how the boy from La Grande wasn't able to be home schooled either, we have a law that's pretty loose about home schooling, plus rural areas (which La Grande is one) have access to on line schooling.
Kid seemed pretty social, so there's that.

By the way, I fucking hate rural Oregon. Bullying for all sorts of things is the norm, Christians.

Being social would be a good reason to allow him to stay in school if he wanted to, but it's not a good reason to force him to stay at school when he was begging to leave.

Being realistic, it is not always possible to homeschool a kid when you work. This is mostly true for those who need to use school as an educational babysitter...which many of us do. But a seemingly good kid who is 15 and therefore able to be alone for hours?

[beyelzu]

So the Ravens are playing the niners in the superbowl. Brendon Ayanbadejo of the Ravens has been outspoken about being pro gay rights, Chris Culliver of the niners was quoted as saying some stuff that was pretty bigoted.

"I don't do the gay guys man," said Culliver, whose Niners play the Baltimore Ravens on Sunday. "I don't do that. No, we don't got no gay people on the team, they gotta get up out of here if they do.

"Can't be with that sweet stuff. Nah…can't be…in the locker room man. Nah."

When quizzed by Lange whether any homosexual athletes would need to keep their sexuality a secret in football, Culliver responded: "Yeah, come out 10 years later after that."

The niners immediately repudiated the comments

The San Francisco 49ers reject the comments that were made [Tuesday], and have addressed the matter with Chris. There is no place for discrimination within our organization at any level. We have and always will proudly support the LGBT community

Culliver apologized. I actually liked his apology, in the world of nonapology apology this one stands out as being an actual apology.

Originally Posted by Culliver

The derogatory comments I made yesterday were a reflection of thoughts in my head, but they are not how I feel," Culliver said in a statement. "It has taken me seeing them in print to realize that they are hurtful and ugly. Those discriminating feelings are truly not in my heart. Further, I apologize to those who I have hurt and offended, and I pledge to learn and grow from this experience.