C'mon, backbenchers, show some backbone

[Godless Dave]

Labour backbenchers really don't like Tony Blair, but their usual manner of showing this dislike is to meekly vote how he tells them to before bleating their way home to their sheep pens. A vote is coming up today around 16:30 British time on Blair's proposal to let the police hold people for up to 90 days without charges instead of the current 14 days. Could this be the vote that gets backbenchers to wake up and realize they don't have to vote how the whip tells them to? Probably not, but I'm keeping my eye on it.

Blair facing crunch terror vote

[Leesifer]

I have no idea how this vote will turn out but I've got the news on in the background and there's a lot of heckling going on. Blair is speaking at the moment.

[ceptimus]

They defeated him.

322 votes against to 291 in favour.

It's not the end of the story though. Blair can try again, or try for some compromise likes 60 days...

[Godless Dave]

Linky: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4422086.stm

Awesome!

Any chance Labor dissidents could lend the American Democratic party that spine when they're done with it?

[Adora]

Damn, here I thought this thread was about Australian politics. I guess the phrase is applicable in England too.

[Veritas]

Britain, not England, seeing as this was down to the British PM...

...although, of course, the Scots ministers weren't asked their opinion, God forbid.

[ceptimus]

Originally Posted by scarletpeaches

Britain, not England, seeing as this was down to the British PM...

...although, of course, the Scots ministers weren't asked their opinion, God forbid.

What do you mean? Tony Blair is a scot. He was born in Edinburgh. His likely successor, Gordon Brown is scottish too. The scots have their own parliament to determine the rules for Scotland but they still send MPs down to Westminster so they can vote on matters that affect only England. The scots are way overrepresented in British politics, with respect to their numbers.

[Darren]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

What do you mean? Tony Blair is a scot. He was born in Edinburgh. His likely successor, Gordon Brown is scottish too. The scots have their own parliament to determine the rules for Scotland but they still send MPs down to Westminster so they can vote on matters that affect only England. The scots are way overrepresented in British politics, with respect to their numbers.

Tony Blair was born in the North of England, not in Scotland. Don't blame him on us. He did go to school at Fettes College in Edinburgh, though. Still, I dare say that's hardly like actually being in Scotland.
We do have to take the blame for Gordon Brown.

Scots MPs will have to go to Westminister as long as it is the British Parliament, and as long as Scotland remains part of Britain. Anything less would result in Westminster being effictively an English colonial government. Of course, England could get an English parliament (or parliaments) to govern purely English affairs.

[Darren]

The result of the vote is great news, thank goodness that proposal is going into the bin. Could it be that there are still some lefties in Labour? What an encouraging thought!

[ceptimus]

Originally Posted by Darren

Tony Blair was born in the North of England, not in Scotland.

Wrong! As I already said, he was born in Edinburgh.

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page4.asp

The son of a barrister and lecturer, Tony Blair was born in Edinburgh, but spent most of his childhood in Durham. At the age of 14 he returned to Edinburgh to finish his education at Fettes College.

Edit to add: I just realised that this was my Mth post. At one time I intended to do something special for that.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by scarletpeaches

Britain, not England, seeing as this was down to the British PM...

...although, of course, the Scots ministers weren't asked their opinion, God forbid.

Just to make this absolutely clear -

I said the above because this vote took place at WESTMINSTER. Westminster is the British parliament, which is supposed to govern British affairs, not just English. Scots MPs weren't even asked to vote on something that affected them and as was already quite correctly said, for as long as Scotland is still part of Britain, Scotland will send MPs to Westminster.

This country doesn't have its own parliament, it has an assembly, which isn't quite the same thing.

As for the "Tony Blair is a Scot" argument - so what? He's the Prime Minister of the British government, therefore, he's the British PM - isn't Scotland, his birthplace, still part of Britain? Being born in Scotland doesn't negate his 'British' nationality. If it were up to me, we'd have a separate parliament and government of our own - none of this kiddy-on assembly wank that doesn't really do much except proliferate bureaucracy.

[ceptimus]

Yeah that's what's wrong. Scottish MSPs get to vote on things that only affect Scotland like having full student grants, but there are also Scottish MPs who go to Westminster and vote on (some) laws that only affect England (like what student grants/loans are in England, for example). That's not fair. I don't mind the Scots setting policy for their own country, but in those policy areas where they do that, the Scottish MPs should abstain at Wesminster on any votes that affect only England.

If we had an English Parliament that affected only England, then we would still need Westminster (or somewhere like it) for issues that affect the whole of Britain. That would be fairer, but I'm not in favour of it as there are too many overpaid politicians in talking shops already.

Despite the fact that they have their own assembly, the Scots are still over-represented at Westminster. English constituencies currently contain nearly 70,000 voters on average, far more than the Scottish average of 53,500.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Yeah that's what's wrong. Scottish MSPs get to vote on things that only affect Scotland like having full student grants, but there are also Scottish MPs who go to Westminster and vote on (some) laws that only affect England (like what student grants/loans are in England, for example). That's not fair...

Westminster MPs aren't the same ones who work at Holyrood. The MPs for the Scottish Parliament only work for Scotland, the Westminster ones work for Britain.

But yes, I agree, there should be separate parliaments for all countries in Britain, and Westminster should be done away with - or used to house the new exclusively English government. None of this Britain/UK/England/Scotland/Wales shite. Separate countries, separate governements. And I want to be able to put SCOTTISH on my passport. After all, there's no such country as Britain - it's a name given to a collection of three.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by scarletpeaches

Westminster MPs aren't the same ones who work at Holyrood. The MPs for the Scottish Parliament only work for Scotland, the Westminster ones work for Britain.

But yes, I agree, there should be separate parliaments for all countries in Britain, and Westminster should be done away with - or used to house the new exclusively English government. None of this Britain/UK/England/Scotland/Wales shite. Separate countries, separate governements. And I want to be able to put SCOTTISH on my passport. After all, there's no such country as Britain - it's a name given to a collection of three.

What? Are you going to throw the Ulster rabble to the Irish? Or let the Scots deal with it? Or, let them become their own nation? That would be fun to watch.

[Godless Dave]

You Scots have to take the blame for Gordon Brown, but you also get to take credit for Robin Cook. Too bad he was assassinated died of a heart attack before this vote.