DP/Abortion

[Legs]

Generally speaking, are people opposed to the Death Penalty also opposed to abortion?

[Smilin]

I'm not opposed to either.

[verte]

I'm opposed to the death penalty, but not opposed to abortion.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by verte

I'm opposed to the death penalty, but not opposed to abortion.

Hi verte, can you expand on your feelings towards each? (ie) one the death of a criminal, one the death of a fetus*

* late term abortions/3rd trimester IMO a baby, but I am still very much pro choice.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by Smilin

I'm not opposed to either.

Me neither, lets have lunch.

[Dingfod]

I am no hypocrite, death is a part of life. I not only believe abortion should be allowed, but should be allowed to be applied retroactively in the case of failure to effectively function within the human race. Same on the other end of life, once contributory functionality ceases, it's a rubber hose from the car exhaust to the window. Not only do I not have a problem with the death penalty, in some particularly heinous crimes, the perps should be glad I'm not a cop on their case, because I'm likely to have an accidental discharge of my firearm.

[Legs]

So you're having lunch with smilin' and me?

[godfry n. glad]

I'm with you all the way on this one, Legs.

I'm pro-choice with the stipulation that third trimester abortions not be allowed and that every public effort should be made to reduce dependence upon abortion, like decent sex education and ready availability of contraceptives.

My experience is that all too many of those who proclaim themselves (often stridently) as "pro-life" are supporters of the death penalty.

[Legs]

g n. g ~ are you Pro DP too?

[Beth]

I am very mixed on the death penalty. I am concerned for those who are sentenced to death wrongfully. But after experiencing the murder of a loved one, I understand the desire for the person who did it to be put to death.

I am also very pro-choice. I even support late-term abortion in some circumstances. I just wish that people would be more careful with birth control to reduce the amount of abortions on demand. I think if there were less elective abortions, the pro-life movement might be less feral to a woman's right to choose.

[verte]

Originally Posted by Legs

Hi verte, can you expand on your feelings towards each? (ie) one the death of a criminal, one the death of a fetus*

* late term abortions/3rd trimester IMO a baby, but I am still very much pro choice.

Until the court system becomes infallible, I can't support sentencing someone to death. If someone is sentenced for a crime they didn't actually commit, we can't dig them up, reanimate them, and apologize. If the defendant is poor, he or she often has little access to a decent attorney, which probably doesn't help their situation.

I'm pro-choice until babies are produced in cabbage patches with no burden on any living being. Or until men can get pregnant?

I admit, I'm not comfortable with the idea of terminating late-term pregnancies, but I can't imagine all the possibilities, nor do I have an MD, and I am even less comfortable with the idea of restricting medical options because they sound unpleasant, and making a situation even worse through ignorance. Though it may be an imperfect solution, I would prefer leaving the choice between a woman and her physician.

[verte]

Originally Posted by Beth

But after experiencing the murder of a loved one, I understand the desire for the person who did it to be put to death.

Absolutely, yes.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Legs

g n. g ~ are you Pro DP too?

You bet.

After a local youngster was kidnapped, tortured, eviscerated while still conscious and then killed and buried in a shallow grave, and then the captured perpetrator led police to the shallow graves of three other young victims who suffered the same fate, I've decided that there are some really, really sick and twisted individuals who deserve death. The butcher's name was Wesley Allan Dodd.

I'll acknowledge that the application of the death penalty in the U.S. has a very poor record, but I think that's due to the standards of evidence allowable for the jury/judge to apply the death penalty are too lax. Still, with sick butchers like Dodd, who made a point of stating in court that, if ever released he would most certainly commit his crimes again and the only way to stop him was to kill him. Not only was there sufficient evidence to convict this murderer, he confessed, and refused clemency. He had his last minute conversion and went to his death assured he'd be with Jebus.

Heinous crimes demand removal of the garbage that commit them.

[Legs]

Wow, g n. g I want to go woohoo to your post but some will gripe,

oh what the hell

[Ymir's blood]

There is a button on my jacket that says, "Choose Death."

[Legs]

Originally Posted by Beth

But after experiencing the murder of a loved one, I understand the desire for the person who did it to be put to death.

Hi Beth, I have never been close to anyone who has been murdered. I haven't felt the rage that you must have.

I have been accused (on this board) of being blood thirsty and wanting revenge, of being emotional about the victim - and that is the reason I am pro DP.

This is really not the case, I am being very matter of fact about it - murder someone and forfeit your life. Full Stop. You are sentenced to the DP, get your affairs in order - execution date is _______. Next. (and non of this 25 years on death row business either)

The emotional ones are the ones worried about the poor guy/woman and what kind of life they had to bring them to this, maybe they need treatment and understanding and to work on the prison farm. Sorry, my violin is packed away and my heartstrings severed. one for the quote generator.

I may well change my stance on the DP if there are life sentences and there is absolutely no chance these people will walk free again. I am truly outraged when serious offenders are let loose to do it again. (happens all the time)

As for abortion, I am majorly iffy on 3rd term procedure. IMO, this is a baby that if at about 24 weeks++ can survive outside the womb. I really, really try not to think about this too much and I am fully pro choice.

I am totally for assisted suicide as described by Dingfod

Originally Posted by verte

If someone is sentenced for a crime they didn't actually commit, we can't dig them up*, reanimate them, and apologize*.

Thanks for explaining your views. I find it interesting that you can be both pro choice and anti DP, like there is no problem killing the innocent but it's wrong to killing the guilty.

I don't think the court system is going to become fallible anytime soon, I see your point about wrongful convictions.

* we could theoretically do two of those things you mentioned

Would you be willing to modify your stance in cases where the accused confesses to the crime?

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Legs

Wow, g n. g I want to go woohoo to your post but some will gripe,

oh what the hell

Well, thanks, but the proponents of warehousing dangerous wackos will be flooding this thread shortly.

And, no...Our judicial system will NEVER be perfect. Such is the nature of humanity.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Well, thanks, but the proponents of warehousing dangerous wackos will be flooding this thread shortly.

All opinions welcome here

[verte]

Originally Posted by Legs

Thanks for explaining your views. I find it interesting that you can be both pro choice and anti DP, like there is no problem killing the innocent but it's wrong to killing the guilty.

But I don't think a fetus is a person, especially in the early stages of pregnancy, or that it should rank higher than a fully-formed woman who would be forced to bear it against her will. And I don't think of conception in terms of guilt or innocence, just pregnant or not pregnant. Though for some immature reason, I am thinking it would be fun to shout, "naughty sperm!"

I don't support giving the guilty a bouquet of flowers and a free pass to karaoke night, either. The solution I prefer for society as a whole is not the same as any personal vengeful impulses I may feel (or may have felt in actuality). It's not a perfect solution, either, just better than an alternative which would present an unacceptable possibility, however satisfying it may feel at times.

I don't think the court system is going to become fallible anytime soon, I see your point about wrongful convictions.

* we could theoretically do two of those things you mentioned

Would you be willing to modify your stance in cases where the accused confesses to the crime?

I'd be willing to modify my stance entirely if I could be certain no innocent people were executed.

[verte]

Originally Posted by Legs

Wow, g n. g I want to go woohoo to your post but some will gripe,

oh what the hell

Well, any reasonable person would utterly DIE for my approval, but it's not strictly necessary to have it to enjoy a good "woo hoo."

[Legs]

Originally Posted by verte

I'd be willing to modify my stance entirely if I could be certain no innocent people were executed.

So a confession is not good enough?

(and not one of those nasty coerced confessions either, one given of his/her own free will)

I am with you on the abortion issue

[Beth]

Legs, I don't think that you are blood thirsty. I think everyone has their own reasons for the way that they think.

I am on the fence in the DP cases, but I am very concerned that innocents are sentence wronfully. Maybe that they should stipulate that there must be absolute proof, such as DNA. But then, I heard that members of the Conlon and Maguire families were imprisoned falsely for many years because forensic evidence proved that they commited IRA bombings. Guiseppe Conlon died in prison, innocent of that which he was accused. I remember that Blair formally apologized to those imprisoned. Anyway, I think this is an example of the police deliberately suppressing and fabricating evidence to make a conviction. I am sure that this type of thing happens in DP cases as well.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Legs

...I am being very matter of fact about it - murder someone and forfeit your life. Full Stop. You are sentenced to the DP, get your affairs in order - execution date is _______. Next. (and non of this 25 years on death row business either)

The emotional ones are the ones worried about the poor guy/woman and what kind of life they had to bring them to this, maybe they need treatment and understanding and to work on the prison farm. Sorry, my violin is packed away and my heartstrings severed. one for the quote generator.

Well, I'm not quite that supportive of the death penalty. I think what most anti-DP folks are concerned about is not the life situation which led a murderer to murder, but that an innocent could be convicted and the death penalty applied. In the US, this has happened all to often (and has a clearly racist tinge to it, too). But when the crime is heinous (like kidnapping, sexual assault, torture and then killing the victim), the evidence incontrovertible, and there is no doubt whatsoever as to the culpibility of the perpetrator, then I think the DP is in order.

And, while acknowledging that you might change your stance based upon the ability of the justice system to keep such vermin locked up, I also agree that there have been all to many instances of such vermin being released or escaping and recommitting similar crimes. I'm not in favor of warehousing such trash at taxpayer expense.

For those who whine that killing criminal who are already locked up is cruel, unusual, unnecessary or whatever, then I suggest we take such criminals and release them into their care, and at their cost. Either that, or release them and give them a 15 minute head start to run and they're fair game for for the use of deadly force by the police....many can use the target practice. (I guess we can call this the Dingfod Applicaton.)

[Legs]

Great post, godfy, I can't argue a thing.

[verte]

Originally Posted by Legs

So a confession is not good enough?

(and not one of those nasty coerced confessions either, one given of his/her own free will)

Because I have the sort of mind that imagines the dog accidentally turning on the coffeemaker and burning down the house, I am picturing someone confessing to a crime they didn't commit. Though I think a confession isn't sufficient to press charges in many cases without corroborating evidence? Or do I need to cut back my Court TV addiction?