A Revolution in Thought: Part Two

[ThreeLawsSafe]

Originally Posted by specious_reasons

I think you were taking an even more conservative approach when discussing peacegirl's mental state, and that you were haranguing others about discussing her mental state. It's been pretty clear that unless she's the most consistent and successful troll in recent history, she really not very functional at all on any subject that's related to the "knowledge" Lessans gave her.

Seriously, I'll bet I could search through the book (I have the PDF) and find a subject we haven't yet discussed, and tell you peacegirl's opinion.

I am more conservative about discussing peacegirl's mental state. I'm that way because of numerous experiences I've seen with clients and friends who find out just how much people misrepresent themselves in online personas. I think that conservatism is justified.

Sure, she's a troll. I'll agree with you there.

Think about how much attention she's getting from everyone on this thread, though. Some people crave attention, no matter what type, and they'll go to great lengths to get it. There clearly has to be some kind of "payoff" for peacegirl to continue posting while LadyShea and SpaceMonkey debunk and DavidM and naturalist.atheist personally attack her. She gets some kind of payoff, otherwise she wouldn't return on a daily -- even an hourly -- basis.

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

There are no public records of copyright???!!!???

I found myself as a test, but no Lessans.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

You're right, there are no photons on Earth, which is why if the Sun was just turned on you would not be able to take a photograph of anyone for 8 minutes, but due to the fact that the Sun is large enough and bright enough, the lens of the camera would be able to focus that light because of the object's (the Sun in this instance) presence. That's why Lessans said that you can't get a photograph from just light. You need the object to be in the camera's field of view. This has nothing to do with duplication. It has only to do with light interacting with the film. Optics supports this since the only way a photograph can be taken is if the light can be resolved by the lens which requires the object to be present. There is never a time that an object is out of the field of view, and a photograph would show up JUST FROM THE LIGHT. How many times do I have to say this for people to finally get it?

You can say it as often as you like but that does not make it true. The photograph will not be taken till the photons arrive on earth from the sun, just like in reality we will not be able to see the Sun for 8.5 minutes, or till the photons from the Sun arrive on Earth. Optics states that light must travel from the Sun, object, or any thing that you want to see, and therefore there will be a delay between the time the light is emmited or reflected and arrives at the eye or film. Lessans had it ass-backwards wrong and no amount of assertion on your part will change reality to fit your particular fantasy. You need to wake up Peacegirl, the dream is over there isn't going to be a 'Golden Age' and your father is not a hero, and apparently not very bright if he thought this was anything other than a joke.

[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by ThreeLawsSafe

Think about how much attention she's getting from everyone on this thread, though. Some people crave attention, no matter what type, and they'll go to great lengths to get it. There clearly has to be some kind of "payoff" for peacegirl to continue posting while LadyShea and SpaceMonkey debunk and DavidM and naturalist.atheist personally attack her. She gets some kind of payoff, otherwise she wouldn't return on a daily -- even an hourly -- basis.

She has a martyrdom complex. The attacks are part of the payoff for her.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Why do you keep ignoring the single example I have asked you to use in favor of all this gobbledegook?

1. The Sun ignited at noon
2. Camera film on Earth at noon
3. No photons of light on Earth until 12:08 ACCORDING TO LESSANS HIMSELF
4. No light on Earth means no photons for the camera film to physically touch which is required for absorption and photocehmical reaction.

How do the photons and the camera film come to the same physical location at noon?

They don't, We do not see the Sun for 8.5 minutes after the photons leave the surface, just as we cannot take a photograph till the Photons have arived, 8.5 minutes later, anything else is bullshit.

[LadyShea]

Sure there's a payoff. The histrionics and martyr imagery, the whole sheep amongst the wolves trying to save the world vibe, even the vengeance narrative (we will be vindicated! You'll be sorry!)...she fancies herself the suffering truthbringer who will be hailed as a hero. The more she suffers the more heroic she is.

[ThreeLawsSafe]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Sure there's a payoff. The histrionics and martyr imagery, the whole sheep amongst the wolves trying to save the world vibe, even the vengeance narrative (we will be vindicated! You'll be sorry!)...she fancies herself the suffering truthbringer who will be hailed as a hero. The more she suffers the more heroic she is.

We don't really take the "martyr complex" with a lot of seriousness in mental health circles, but we do talk about histrionics and victimization. I'm not saying that's peacegirl's issue.

But let's say hypothetically that she feeds off of this kind of attention. Let's say for the moment that she is mentally ill in that process. Have you thought about your own behavior, then? What role are you playing in all of this? Do you have any responsibility in not enabling another person's mental illness? I'm not just talking to LadyShea here; I'm talking to everyone who posts in this thread regularly to answer peacegirl.

LadyShea - you personally have defended posting here as a function of learning something. I think that's an extraordinarily weak argument. Surely you could read countless books that would teach you a great deal more about cosmology, physics, optics, and so on in the time you've spent posting here. Surely you could have had numerous productive debates with other interlocutors on any number of subjects in the time you've spent here. Your excuses just don't hold water.

For those of you who truly think peacegirl has a mental illness, I think it's time to consider the role you're playing in that illness if you're correct. We all have responsibilities for our social interactions, including those on this forum. No one's going to moderate you out of it, but perhaps you should moderate yourselves?

[LadyShea]

I said martyr imagery. She has likened us to Nazis, Inquisitioners, witchhunters, and the crucifiers of Christ. She has predicted that we would burn the book, burn her, or burn Lessans, lynch her or Lessans, etc. if only we could.

[LadyShea]

But let's say hypothetically that she feeds off of this kind of attention. Let's say for the moment that she is mentally ill in that process. Have you thought about your own behavior, then? What role are you playing in all of this? Do you have any responsibility in not enabling another person's mental illness? I'm not just talking to LadyShea here; I'm talking to everyone who posts in this thread regularly to answer peacegirl.

As I said earlier this month

peacegirl is an adult who is high enough functioning to move about society and use computers, and she chooses to be here. Nobody here sought her out, forces her to stay here, or is responsible for her well being.

LadyShea - you personally have defended posting here as a function of learning something. I think that's an extraordinarily weak argument. Surely you could read countless books that would teach you a great deal more about cosmology, physics, optics, and so on in the time you've spent posting here. Surely you could have had numerous productive debates with other interlocutors on any number of subjects in the time you've spent here. Your excuses just don't hold water.

I very clearly stated that I wouldn't have read those books or looked into many of these topics if not prompted by this thread. It was a motivation or springboard. I never would have looked deeply at evolution or Creationism years back if not prompted by debating YECs. I never would have researched historical Jesus if not prompted by a friends becoming a BAC. Like Alice, I wouldn't go down the rabbit hole if I hadn't seen a rabbit wearing a waistcoat go in there.

I have also participated in many discussions here at and in real life at the same time, as well as researched other things for my work or personal edification.

Anyway, this level and length of debate and research is not weird or odd to me at all. My husband and I have debated single topics (with tangents) for years. I also have to be at the computer all day every day, but don't have a whole day worth of work to do most of the time.

BTW, why is there a need to defend my posting here?

[ThreeLawsSafe]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

As I said earlier this month peacegirl is an adult who is high enough functioning to move about society and use computers, and she chooses to be here. Nobody here sought her out, forces her to stay here, or is responsible for her well being.

Sure, she can use a computer and can post to this forum. That says nothing about her well-being, other than that she can breathe and type.

You yourself have said numerous times that she is mentally ill in some fashion. If, in the real world, you consistently engaged in arguments with the mentally-ill, what would that make you? If you consistently visited mental health facilities and argued with the patients, would your response to criticism be "well, she was able to talk freely and argue back, so I'm doing nothing wrong"? Seriously?

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I very clearly stated that I wouldn't have read those books or looked into many of these topics if not prompted by this thread. It was a motivation or springboard. I never would have looked deeply at evolution or Creationism years back if not prompted by debating YECs. I never would have researched historical Jesus if not prompted by a friends becoming a BAC.

I have no doubt that certain threads have initiated interesting discussion or reading for you. More power to you. But you could find the same such inspiration in threads with a more productive conversation. Easily. You could also find such inspiration in the innocent reading of books, magazines, or websites. None of those require you to enable a person you regard as mentally-ill. This argument of yours is a complete cop-out.

Nor am I saying you can't have a prolonged debate. I'm simply questioning the motives of having a prolonged debate with someone you regard as mentally ill.

[LadyShea]

I haven't had a True Believer to debate with that stuck around in many years. She sticks around and interesting things pop up. I look up something new to use in the debate all the time.

I also think she may eventually realize that Lessans made some mistakes. I have seen it happen.

[LadyShea]

Anyway, who said anything about my enabling mentally ill people? Do you now believe she is mentally ill?

[ThreeLawsSafe]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Anyway, who said anything about my enabling mentally ill people? Do you now believe she is mentally ill?

I'm attributing that point of view entirely to you. That's your position. I'm saying you either don't believe it truly, or you're acting irresponsibly.

[LadyShea]

Oh? Where did I say I think peacegirl is mentally ill? I don't know that she's mentally ill, I have always said I consider her a True Believer and woo peddler. She also uses persecution language and martyr imagery and histrionics and I've called her on it. Lots of people do that even without an official illness.

I don't see any reason to not treat peacegirl as an adult making a choice to be here.

[ThreeLawsSafe]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I haven't had a True Believer to debate with that stuck around in many years. She sticks around and interesting things pop up. I look up something new to use in the debate all the time.

I also think she may eventually realize that Lessans made some mistakes. I have seen it happen.

Sure, things "pop up" in mental health facilities all the time as well. Much more fascinating things that what you've found here. Why don't you visit one and start arguments with the folks there? Talk them down from their deeply-held convictions? Why not?

[LadyShea]

You yourself have said numerous times that she is mentally ill in some fashion

You are ascribing to me opinions I have not stated I hold. To my knowledge peacegirl is not in an institution, and I know she is not a captive here at . She has adult children, one of whom is a doctor, and grandchildren she sees. It is not my responsibility to police her discussions on the Internet for her. She is here and I will discuss with her.

I have said that I can see why some people would think she is mentally ill, but I have not, to my recollection, stated I think she is.

[ThreeLawsSafe]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

.

I have said that I can see why some people would think she is mentally ill, but I have not, to my recollection, stated I think she is.

I went back and looked, and I stand corrected. Indeed you haven't. Sorry.

My criticisms stand for others, however, such as naturalist.atheist and davidm.

[LadyShea]

ThreeLawsSafe? Do you feel I have been unfair to peacegirl in this debate? Have my points been tricky or manipulative in your opinion? What behavior have I exhibited that you consider akin to accosting mental patients in a hospital?

[ThreeLawsSafe]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

ThreeLawsSafe? Do you feel I have been unfair to peacegirl in this debate? Have my points been tricky or manipulative in your opinion? What behavior have I exhibited that you consider akin to accosting mental patients in a hospital?

See my above retraction. I don't think you've necessarily been unfair. I think I've attributed what I saw to the whole group of folks who regularly respond. But I see that doesn't include you!

[thedoc]

I think there is a hope that, however unrealistic, something will click and Peacegirl will snap out of her delusions and see reality for what it is. That hope might not be primary or even high on the list for everyone, it may even only be a fleeting thought for a few of us, but I will say that I have entertained that fantasy on occasion.

[Vivisectus]

Originally Posted by ThreeLawsSafe

Notice my usage of the term "we" when referring to buffoons, you buffoon. I'm criticizing myself just as much as anyone else.

And I refer specifically to Greene's book because it is relevant to one of the subject-matters at hand, which is physics.

Fair enough so!

[ThreeLawsSafe]

Originally Posted by thedoc

I think there is a hope that, however unrealistic, something will click and Peacegirl will snap out of her delusions and see reality for what it is. That hope might not be primary or even high on the list for everyone, it may even only be a fleeting thought for a few of us, but I will say that I have entertained that fantasy on occasion.

You don't feel like you have any responsibility in enabling behavior that you yourself have defined as mentally-ill, naturalist.atheist?

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by ThreeLawsSafe

You don't feel like you have any responsibility in enabling behavior that you yourself have defined as mentally-ill, naturalist.atheist?

Wha?

[ThreeLawsSafe]

Originally Posted by naturalist.atheist

Wha?

You have labelled peacegirl mentally ill on numerous occasions. What does it say about you that you continually come here and argue with her? Would you be willing to go to an institution solely to argue down people with mental illnesses in the real world? If not, why not? Why is peacegirl any different in your eyes? Wouldn't it be more humane and just of you simply to leave her alone so that you're not fulfilling her need for attention, which might then get her the help she needs in your eyes?

[naturalist.atheist]

Originally Posted by ThreeLawsSafe

You have labelled peacegirl mentally ill on numerous occasions. What does it say about you that you continually come here and argue with her? Would you be willing to go to an institution solely to argue down people with mental illnesses in the real world? If not, why not? Why is peacegirl any different in your eyes? Wouldn't it be more humane and just of you simply to leave her alone so that you're not fulfilling her need for attention, which might then get her the help she needs in your eyes?

I don't really argue with peacegirl. The few times I do, I don't expect much in the way of a rational response. I tell her this. But I find it odd that a mental health professional is arguing that someone with an obvious problem should not be helped. As for attention, I don't think you have been following this thread much. She does not like my attention. She wants me banned. That is because I have been asking her to get help and that is not the kind of attention she wants. Those that argue with her as if she is presenting something valid to be considered are doing the enabling here. It makes her think that she is somehow carrying out her self imposed mission to spread the word of Lessans to the world.