A revolution in thought

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

lol Jake Crosby anti-vax nutter slap fight.

That guy's clearly a quack. All right-thinking people know that the most effective autism treatments are bleach enemas, colloidal silver, homeopathy and camel's milk.

Ohhh, Kinky, where can I get some of that stuff?

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I'm not weaseling. I have read reports that autism has not gone up after the removal of thimerosal. So someone is lying. Why don't read this report? Both sides can't be lying.

LOL you are weaseling. I did read the report, and it is also arguing that autism rates have not increased. So is that now your position?

I'll make it simple. Choose A, B, or C

A) Is it your position that there are more kids with neurodevelopmental disorders today than ever before, as you've stated and implied multiple times?

B) Is it your position that there are fewer kids with neurodevelopmental disorders today than there were in the late 90's, due to the removal of thimerosal, as the Geiers and others have argued?

C) Is it your position that the the number/percentage of kids with neurodevelopmental disorders has remained steady in the past and currently?

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Because of this wrong way of judging my father's credibility, it may take another 100 years for this knowledge to be brought to light. But there's no doubt in my mind that it will, one day, be brought to light, probably when people realize that you cannot judge a person's skill by looking at his formal credentials only.

Where did I say that we should judge someone's credibility by looking at his formal credentials only? I said that Lessans lacks credibility because his work is not credible. In what way is it wrong to judge his credibility on the basis of the credibility of his work?

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

If it is true that boys get more autism than girls, we should also see more cases of boys with autism in the Amish population, especially if there is inbreeding. I found this on a forum. Interesting.

I don't exactly qualify for the "Ask the Amish Guy" capacity, but I do have a background that's relevant - my family up through my generation were/are Amish. My parents left the Amish church before I was born so I can't claim to be ex-Amish myself.

The Amish are a dream community for geneticists - they breed from a relatively closed pool, they have large families and they keep extensive genealogical records. As far as the inbreeding goes, it's true that any given Amish person will be related to any other Amish person in some way, but for most it's distant enough that it's not an issue. If you go back to the beginnings of the Amish in America, there are relatively few founding families and so there will be a common ancestor somewhere. For instance, the majority of the Amish can trace at least one branch of the family back to a Jacob Hochstetler who settle in Pennsylvania in the early 1700s. I can trace back to him through three of my four grandparents... The Amish are not ignorant of the effect that their inbreeding has had, and have cooperated with genetic studies, etc. It's also not unusual for young people in an Amish community to travel to other communities to find spouses, to avoid marrying someone closely related. And you have to remember that each greater Amish community is a separate pool - the Amish in Lancaster County, PA are a different pool than those in Holmes County, OH, who are themselves different than the community found in northern IN.

For reference you can track down "Medical Genetic Studies of the Amish: Selected Papers, Assembled, with Commentary" by Victor A. McKusick, published by Johns Hopkins University Press. For a more general view of the Amish, including the genetic and medical issues, I recommend "Amish Society" by John A. Hostetler, also published by Johns Hopkins - available through Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Amish-Society-...1425737&sr=8-1

Amish inbreeding - Straight Dope Message Board

Did you have a point in there somewhere?

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

Tell me: if credentials are so unimportant, would you trust your butcher to perform brain surgery on you? I mean, how can you tell if he is not super-talented in brain surgery? And hey, just because he never went to medical school does not mean he cannot be a top-notch brain surgeon?

Is it possible that peacegirl has had brain surgery performed by a butcher? That would explain a great deal.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

No Amish population has been proven to have a genetic defect whether they were closed population studies or not.

No Amish population has been proven to have a lower incidence of autism because they have a lower rate of vaccination.

Your move.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

You haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Inbreeding can propagate/concentrate any genetic trait or disposition: neutral, beneficial, or detrimental. An isolated group may have a higher incidence of green eyes (neutral), a higher incidence of heritable diseases (detrimental), or a reduced incidence of cancer (beneficial) or combination (see the people of Ecuador who have a rare form of dwarfism as well as no cancer or diabetes)

Autism has not been shown to be due to a genetic malfunction. However, IF there is a genetic component, it might be that the Amish lack that genetic disposition or have a low incidence of it...offering another possible explanation for the alleged reduced autism rate amongst the Amish.

What are you finding so difficult to understand here?

Everything, apparently.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

How can you implicate an entire group of researchers the likes of neuro-scientists and Ph.Ds, pediatricians, as well as people whose children have been directly hurt by vaccines, just because you want to have the final word?

Hey, look who's resorting to the argument from credentials (a.k.a. Argument From Authority).

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

I have read reports that autism has not gone up after the removal of thimerosal. So someone is lying. Why don't read this report? Both sides can't be lying.

Why not? It happens all the time in divorce cases, civil suits, criminal prosecutions, political debates and weddings.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

That wasn't the right word. So now you're going to use this against me?

Why not? Is there some rule that we don't know about that exempts you from being held responsible for your errors of fact?

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by thedoc

Did you even read what you wrote, if inbreeding caused an undesired mutation, more inbreeding would not make it go away, it would magnify it and strengthen it.

Originally Posted by thedoc

You said that mutations go away due to inbreeding, there are your posts.

She wrote "awry", not "away". You've been a bad boy. You should apologize.

Gilda Radner Nevermind - YouTube

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

lol Even anti-vaxers consider Tim Bolen an unhinged whackadoo.

That's a pretty quality rant in its own right

IMHO... the guy is a jerk and full of hot air. He knows nothing about the vaccine problem, how to heal our kids and has not made any progress for us in any way in our fight. He cares absolutely jack about our kids, and is happy to slander autism parents... those who have been working for a decade or more, at great expense to themselves and their families, and who have made all crazy amounts of progress (and still are) ALL TO APPARENTLY LINE HIS OWN POCKETS and feed what appears to be an enormous ego.

Be advised... Tim Bolen just makes up his own reality. He is a carpetbagger who has nothing to offer us. He has no credibility.

snip

Heard from as associate of the Geiers who says, "The Geiers and Tim Bolen are not working together and have not been working together for quite some time." Very good to hear.

Tim Bolen Shoots Himself in the Foot From His Hip - AGE OF AUTISM

[Vivisectus]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Actually, a little boy in India (I believe) loved medicine and learned the tricks of the trade. He did surgery on someone in an emergency. This person was forever grateful because he would have died had the boy not been there. Motto of story: You never know what knowledge a person has until you need him.

That is a heart-warming story! I heard this one about a lion that was adopted by a German shepherd. And the one about the guy who claimed to be a plastic surgeon, but who wasn't, and ended up maiming a whole bunch of people for life? Classic. You should call readers digest. They love that kind of stuff. I know how to do a tracheotomy too by the way.

But what a stupid, stupid motto. It makes no kind of sense. Basically it means "In an emergency, the decision you would never otherwise make might just turn out OK despite the odds".

[Vivisectus]

Usually inbreeding causes a mutation that is not desired. It is something that goes awry due to inbreeding.

Considering that this is once again complete nonsense, and that you regularly show a complete lack of understanding of things medical, physiological, and anatomical, how do you think this influences the way you form an opinion on the vaccination question?

Do you think your opinion is well-founded, and that you adequately understand the opposing points of view?

What about the different parties int he vaccine "debate": do you think they have the competencies required to reach conclusions that we can reasonably assume to be correct? Which parties do you think have them more and which less?

[Vivisectus]

By the way, I don't want to alarm anyone (yes I do), but I am aware of products that people come across a hell of a lot more often than vaccines and that contain 220% of the safe dose of mercury... we regularly overload our systems with this toxic substance, possibly bringing out the latent autism in us by tipping us over the edge!11!!

[Vivisectus]

Hah! I knew it!

According to the Geiers, Autism is on the decline since 1999, when Thimoseral was discontinued as a preservative in vaccines.

And guess what has been steadily on the decline ever since as well? The consumption of the SAME PRODUCT LOADED WITH TOXINS!1!!

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

Don't think what's correct? The claim that mercury in vaccines is "50 times more toxic than plain old mercury" clearly requires support. The chiropractor who authored the article you cited claimed support from the "facts" that infants lack blood-brain barriers and don't produce bile. In truth, those statements were the opposite of facts. Thus, the claimed support for the contention that mercury in vaccines is "50 times more toxic than plain old mercury" was chimerical. There's no room for debate on that point.

That was not her reasoning, and I don't believe Sallie Bernard is a chiropractor.

MERCURY IN VACCINES: "NO MORE DANGEROUS THAN THE MERCURY IN A TUNA SANDWICH"
Brandon Turbeville
Infowars.com
March 10, 2010

Over the last few years, the American people have become increasingly aware of the dangers of vaccination. This is due, in large part, to those in the independent media that had the courage to report on the serious side effects of vaccine ingredients such as aluminum, polysorbate 80, thimerosal, and squalene. As a result of increased education regarding vaccines, many Americans have come to resist the toxic injections. Indeed, nowhere was this more evident than the recent swine flu scam that left thousands and thousands of unused vaccine vials stuck on the shelves of pharmacies and health departments all across the country. Yet the vaccine and pharmaceutical companies, many medical doctors, and government health agencies have engaged in a massive public relations scheme in order to convince the population to forsake real science as well as their own common sense and take the shot. During the swine flu scare America was subjected to the usual scare tactics of medical doctors, intense media hype and alarm, and even ridiculous statements claiming that the mercury contained in vaccines is no more dangerous than the mercury in a tuna sandwich. (Infowars) This latter statement is of particular interest due to the fact that it is similar to some of the arguments vaccinators have used for some time and continue to use in their efforts to cast doubt upon the harmful effects of thimerosal. Mixing truth with fiction, they claim that ethylmercury (the mercury used in vaccines) is a very different form of mercury than methylmercury (the mercury found in fish) and that, between the two, methylmercury is more dangerous. A closer examination of the argument however, reveals a much different conclusion.

» Mercury in vaccines: “No more dangerous than the mercury in a tuna sandwich” Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Originally Posted by peacegirl

How can you say that Stephen? That's a crock.

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

It's very simple, really. I've never read or even heard-tell of any Mercola.com article that didn't contain at least one egregious factual error. Moreover, Joe Mercola himself is all about exploiting fear to peddle woo products. Maybe there is an accurate article and/or an author with pristine motives somewhere on Mercola.com, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to look for them.

I know you don't. You don't want to give Mercola a fair shake. You already have your mind made up that his motives have only to do with selling products, which is an unfair accusation. Regardless of what site you're on, whether it's a government or an alternative health site, you cannot just drop your critical assessment at the door. But when you compare him to people in the FDA and CDC, he looks like an angel. Why don't you have anything to say about the corruption going on in these agencies?

Originally Posted by peacegirl

We're not on a game show;

Originally Posted by peacegirl

we're talking about the possibility of mercury in infants being the cause of neurological deficits.

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

Can we at least agree that anti-vaxers are shooting themselves in the foot by making patently, laughably and idiotically false claims like infants lack a blood-brain barrier and don't produce bile?

Why do you keep bringing this up and trying to contaminate the entire anti-vax effort?

You are generalizing.

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

No kidding. The generalization that anti-vaxers shoot themselves in the foot when they make false claims is perfectly valid. The same is true any other group.

True, but that does not negate the possibility that vaccines in the way they are administered today are posing a serious risk to a subset of children.

Originally Posted by peacegirl

How can you implicate an entire group of researchers the likes of neuro-scientists and Ph.Ds, pediatricians, as well as people whose children have been directly hurt by vaccines, just because you want to have the final word?

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

(1) I couldn't care less about having the final word. I don't have a dog in this fight at all. My limited interest stems from the lulz that flow from watching anti-vaxers flail.

I think you get joy out of watching anti-vaxers flail because it's entertainment for you. You are looking for people you can laugh at. It's no wonder you don't want them to be right.

Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin

(2) I agree that the dumbass chiropractor's false claims about bile and blood-brain barriers do not taint the "work" of other anti-vaxers. Not to worry, though, since there's more than enough individualized taint to go around.

First get your facts straight. I don't think she is a chiropractor, and what gives you the right to call her a dumb ass? Why do you have to talk about people in such a derogatory way? Obviously, you do this because you don't have enough real evidence against them to carry a conversation without it, or you wouldn't need to use it.

[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

You are looking for people you can laugh at.

And you keep on providing them.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

By the way, I don't want to alarm anyone (yes I do), but I am aware of products that people come across a hell of a lot more often than vaccines and that contain 220% of the safe dose of mercury... we regularly overload our systems with this toxic substance, possibly bringing out the latent autism in us by tipping us over the edge!11!!

Why are you being sarcastic when this issue will affect so many children yet to be born?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=BtFsy0rQsak

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

And you keep on providing them.

Maybe so, but who gets the last laugh is what counts.

[LadyShea]

Sallie Barnard is a full time autism activist and formerly in marketing.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

Considering that this is once again complete nonsense, and that you regularly show a complete lack of understanding of things medical, physiological, and anatomical, how do you think this influences the way you form an opinion on the vaccination question?

My using the wrong word (mutation) has nothing to do with anything else. You can easily conclude anything you want if you are bent on finding some detail to try to derail everything and anything I have to say. If that's the case, you can build an enormous case against me and my father or my views on vaccines, but one or two or even three trivial mistakes does not a disaccreditation make.

Originally Posted by Vivisectus

Do you think your opinion is well-founded, and that you adequately understand the opposing points of view?

What about the different parties int he vaccine "debate": do you think they have the competencies required to reach conclusions that we can reasonably assume to be correct? Which parties do you think have them more and which less?

I am trying to be unbiased here. But until the facts are in (which they aren't) I will always err on the side of caution and so will every doctor in the new world. Vaccine safety has come under serious scrutiny in 2013, and for very good reason.

[peacegirl]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Sallie Barnard is a full time autism activist and formerly in marketing.

Are you trying to discredit her because she was in marketing? So that means she has nothing valid to say? My father was a salesman and a pool player. So that means his book is valueless? But thanks for correcting Stephen Maturin, who believed she was a chiropractor.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Sallie Barnard is a full time autism activist and formerly in marketing.

Ohhh Marketing, that trumps any real knowledge of medicine 24-7, doesn't it?

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by peacegirl

Are you trying to discredit her because she was in marketing? So that means she has nothing valid to say? My father was a salesman and a pool player. So that means his book is valueless? But thanks for correcting Stephen Maturin, who believed she was a chiropractor.

Sallie Barnard and Lessans have discredited themselves by what they have written and said, their background is only relevant as an explanation of why they are so wrong.