race, the n word, cracker historical context and hate crimes

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Tim Wise

Poor whites are rarely typified as pathological, dangerous, lazy or shiftless the way poor blacks are, for example. Nor are they demonized the way poor Latino/a immigrants tend to be.

My BS detector went off big time on this statement. "Trailer trash", "poor white trash", "from the poor side of town", "from the wrong side of the tracks", "worthless bums", "ne'er-do-wells" and even "redneck" are terms often slung in the direction of poor whites with no other purpose than to denigrate and demonize. I don't think it is rare at all. Admittedly, most of the time it is done by more well off whites. In societal ranking, I'd say poor whites aren't viewed much more highly than poor minorities if at all.

[livius drusus]

I don't think his point is that no insults for poor white people exist. None of those terms you cited are used as to describe how white people as a group are scary, violent, riotous, whereas racial slurs against blacks and other minorities most certainly are.

In other words, poor whites described in unflattering terms, sure; poor whites as examples of their race characterized as pathological and dangerous, no.

[Godless Dave]

I agree, Liv. But it does demonstrate that one of the purposes of racism is to get the disadvantaged to attack and hate each other rather than the rich people who are exploiting them.

I think context matters quite a bit here. The term "cracker" is not particularly insulting to me. But to a white kid in a school where 70% of the student body is black it would have far more threatening connotations.

Similarly, if the year were 1942 or 1917 and someone called me a Kraut or a Hun I'd be pretty worried. But if someone did it now I'd laugh at them (on the off chance anyone even noticed my German ancestry).

[The Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

But it does demonstrate that one of the purposes of racism is to get the disadvantaged to attack and hate each other rather than the rich people who are exploiting them.

There's probably something to that. Howard Zinn argues in A People's History of the United States that from the earliest days of the United States, those in power have encouraged racism as a means of distracting poor whites and poor blacks and so keeping them from recognizing that they're both being manipulated and exploited by the rich and powerful.


I've worked a number of manual labor jobs where most of my co-workers were African-American and Hispanic. On the job, we all got along quite well, because we were quite well-aware that we were all in the same boat. But it was simply shocking to talk with these guys about their lives outside the workplace. Almost all of them had spent a good deal of time in jail, for instance. What's shocking is why. They'd quite casually mention that they'd be walking down the street and a police car would stop, and they'd be picked up and taken in for an overnight stay in the slammer -- for no apparent reason other than that they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and were the wrong color.

What I found so astonishing about it was how casual most of them were about this. They were so used to being treated with suspicion wherever they went that they considered it normal to be hauled off to jail at least once or twice in the average year for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some of them were surprised that I found this so shocking -- they thought of it as perfectly normal, and had long ago accepted that this was simply the way things were, and the price they had to pay for being born with dark skin.

[Dingfod]

I wasn't trying to say what poor whites suffer is in any way comparable to that of poor blacks, only to point out that terms of derision toward poor whites are not rare at all. I beg to differ that they are not seen as dangerous and criminals. People see an unkempt unshaven man with a bad haircut and make all sorts of assumptions about them being wife-beaters or worse. I don't know how many times I've heard the neighborhood a mile or so away from my house referred to as the meth capital of Oklahoma, or heard something like "Only criminals and drugged out white trash live in Blahville", or "You don't really drive through there, do you?" There aren't any minorities at all in this village that lies on my road to my workplace, only poor people, some working poor, some just dirt poor. Some probably are criminals and on drugs, but I'd say the vast majority of them are law abiding citizens, their only problem is not having much of a say as to where they live because of economic circumstance.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by warrenly

I beg to differ that they are not seen as dangerous and criminals.

Of course individuals can be seen as dangerous based on class prejudice and some white neighborhoods can be seen as criminally dangerous. The point I was trying to make is that terms like "poor white trash" do not pathologize a race and are thus not even on the same scale as anti-black racial slurs.

The "meth capital" reputation is an insulting generalization for the honest working poor in that neighborhood, but that doesn't get extrapolated into de facto assumptions of criminality based on white skin, just as idiotic college open container riots are never characterized as race riots even though they are massively, overwhelmingly white.

How many of those working poor, for instance, get arrested a couple of times a year for being in the wrong neighborhood? I'll wager exactly none of them have. Class bias and its attendant slurs just don't operate on the same principles that racial slurs against black people do.

Oh, and what Shake said.

[Dingfod]

Granted.

[Beth]

Ok, I agree that the minority groups do feel the oppression of the majority group. I am well aware of racism and rather agree with the article from Tim Wise that Liv posted. I just do not put up with it from any side.

I have experienced slurs from black girls in a predominately black school. I was transferred there after attending another predominately black school in the projects where I had tons of black friends, the girls would take turns plaiting my blonde hair, we would cut up, I would marvel at their hair and at how cool it was that it would just stay in place in a braid with no need of a holder...the hair thing was the only asthetic difference we took note in and we loved that difference. Other than that, we were just giggling girlfriends. (I might also add that before this school, I had only known a few other black girls, one in my neighborhood, and a few from school.)

When I transferred to this other school, it was hell from the start. In the locker room, on my first day, I was pinned by a group of black girls using every slur that I imagine can be used for a white girl. They threatened me, tripped me, and told me that they were gonna push me down the stairs one day if I did not change my stuck-up honkey attitude. This went on constantly. In the halls, I would be tripped by some black girl for being a honkey, I would have black boys threaten me with knives, or until I became the resource officer's assistant. I, not once, adopted a racist attitude, never decided that my oppression and the hatred I was dealing with justified the way my family spoke of the black people and it helped me understand some of the hatred black people do experience from whites.

My son is now in a predominately black middle school, he was given a concussion by a black boy a few weeks ago because my son is a cracker. My son tried to avoid the boy, to be the better person and sit at his table and behave and the kid decided that he would hit my son in the back of the head. So after this racially motivated incident that the school ignored (until I threatened filing complaint with the school board), I decided that when another child a called my son a cracker with a hateful and racist tone that I would make sure the offender was punished. Especially because of the last incident and since it is a violation of the hate crimes act in Florida and that is a punishable offence by the school board, I felt I should not just ignore the racism just because my son was white.

I understand the vileness of the 'n' word. I never say that word. I did once as a child until someone explained to me the meaning of it. I also accept when people call me a cracker, although I am not one, because it is basically like calling a northerner a Yank. Just a term, no really bad connotations and I usually make some sort of joke. I accept black people calling me a cracker or using 'you crackers' as long as there is not a hateful implication there and yes, I can tell the differences.

I think that we must say enough.

Now days, I rarely face any sort of racism.I smile widely to both blacks and whites or just ignore them equally. I am kind and polite and usually feel at ease in black neighborhoods (except for one area). I can understand that most in racial minority groups are not honestly able to say that they rarely continue to face racism. Because of this, I accept that the "n" word has a history of oppression and really is not exactly the same as cracker. But, to me, both words can be used in hate and to reopen racial divides that we are trying to mend through education down here. So these inciting words should not be tolerated.

I think that the racial tensions in this nation will not ease until the south no longer has those alive that remember being oppressed by the law or those who remember being superiors to those oppressed. I do not think that until those who felt what it was like to be forced to stand "n" the back of the bus or to use a different toilet or to use a different water fountain or to be refused service simply because their skin was a different color, or those who felt the empowerment of suppressing that group and relishing the good ole days when the whites were legally superior to the inferior black man pass into the annuls of history that any racial divides will truly be bridged.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Of course individuals can be seen as dangerous based on class prejudice and some white neighborhoods can be seen as criminally dangerous. The point I was trying to make is that terms like "poor white trash" do not pathologize a race and are thus not even on the same scale as anti-black racial slurs.

The "meth capital" reputation is an insulting generalization for the honest working poor in that neighborhood, but that doesn't get extrapolated into de facto assumptions of criminality based on white skin, just as idiotic college open container riots are never characterized as race riots even though they are massively, overwhelmingly white.

How many of those working poor, for instance, get arrested a couple of times a year for being in the wrong neighborhood? I'll wager exactly none of them have. Class bias and its attendant slurs just don't operate on the same principles that racial slurs against black people do.

Oh, and what Shake said.

blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime, and I am perfectly willing to accept that it is almost certianly because of economic reasons.

and while I probably cant speak for others, I rarely feal uncomfortable in any environment. I think that certain cultural identifiers are probably what people key off of more than simply skin color. The hiphop look if you will. I just dont think that people are going to fear a middle age black man in a suit.

I think the mixture of gangsta rap with its glorification of crime and violence, the fact that blacks are more likely to commit crime and the fact that many black youth's embrace the thug look is as much responsible for the stereotyping as the evil white man.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

I've worked a number of manual labor jobs where most of my co-workers were African-American and Hispanic. On the job, we all got along quite well, because we were quite well-aware that we were all in the same boat. But it was simply shocking to talk with these guys about their lives outside the workplace. Almost all of them had spent a good deal of time in jail, for instance. What's shocking is why. They'd quite casually mention that they'd be walking down the street and a police car would stop, and they'd be picked up and taken in for an overnight stay in the slammer -- for no apparent reason other than that they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and were the wrong color.

What I found so astonishing about it was how casual most of them were about this. They were so used to being treated with suspicion wherever they went that they considered it normal to be hauled off to jail at least once or twice in the average year for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some of them were surprised that I found this so shocking -- they thought of it as perfectly normal, and had long ago accepted that this was simply the way things were, and the price they had to pay for being born with dark skin.

That's just sad.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

I've worked a number of manual labor jobs where most of my co-workers were African-American and Hispanic. On the job, we all got along quite well, because we were quite well-aware that we were all in the same boat. But it was simply shocking to talk with these guys about their lives outside the workplace. Almost all of them had spent a good deal of time in jail, for instance. What's shocking is why. They'd quite casually mention that they'd be walking down the street and a police car would stop, and they'd be picked up and taken in for an overnight stay in the slammer -- for no apparent reason other than that they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and were the wrong color.

What I found so astonishing about it was how casual most of them were about this. They were so used to being treated with suspicion wherever they went that they considered it normal to be hauled off to jail at least once or twice in the average year for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some of them were surprised that I found this so shocking -- they thought of it as perfectly normal, and had long ago accepted that this was simply the way things were, and the price they had to pay for being born with dark skin.

what I am amazed by is that you believed that they were all arrested for no reason.

you have to be incredibly naive.

police dont just cruise around arresting black people for no fucking reason.

in short I would like some proof that this assertion has anything at all to do with mainstream reality.

[The Lone Ranger]

Oh, I don't think the police are all going around looking for black people "out of place" in order to arrest them. Nor do I even believe that all the people who told me they were just minding their own business when they were picked up were telling the truth. What I found so shocking about the whole thing was how many of these people seemed to think that getting arrested once or twice a year was normal.

Maybe they were all a bunch of hooligans for all I know. Still, it was a pretty graphic reminder that I -- a poor white guy -- lived in a very different world than the poor brown and black guys did.

Cheers,

Michael

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

Oh, I don't think the police are all going around looking for black people "out of place" in order to arrest them. Nor do I even believe that all the people who told me they were just minding their own business when they were picked up were telling the truth. What I found so shocking about the whole thing was how many of these people seemed to think that getting arrested once or twice a year was normal.

Maybe they were all a bunch of hooligans for all I know. Still, it was a pretty graphic reminder that I -- a poor white guy -- lived in a very different world than the poor brown and black guys did.

Cheers,

Michael

or conversely, maybe they just didnt want to admit what crimes they had actually committed.

or maybe their cultural meme allows for the possibility that police do go around arresting blacks for no reason and that everyone knows that.

Much as a majority of blacks seemed to think that OJ was innocent and that he was framed for little or no reason.

[Petra]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

what I am amazed by is that you believed that they were all arrested for no reason.

you have to be incredibly naive.

police dont just cruise around arresting black people for no fucking reason.

in short I would like some proof that this assertion has anything at all to do with mainstream reality.

Two words: Tulia, Texas.

Many of those people are still sitting in jail.

[Shake]

Originally Posted by warrenly

My BS detector went off big time on this statement. "Trailer trash", "poor white trash", "from the poor side of town", "from the wrong side of the tracks", "worthless bums", "ne'er-do-wells" and even "redneck" are terms often slung in the direction of poor whites with no other purpose than to denigrate and demonize. I don't think it is rare at all. Admittedly, most of the time it is done by more well off whites. In societal ranking, I'd say poor whites aren't viewed much more highly than poor minorities if at all.

Right, but this sort of misses the point that those terms don't have as much impact coming from non-whites. Wise even says that each "class" competes against itself. What he's saying is that within each class, rich, middle-class, and poor, the whites tend to retain some sort of advantage or at least some perceived edge over the non-whites within their class.