DP/Abortion

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Legs

Are you Anti DP? you should know by now. yes or no - easy peasy

Even my pro-death stance isn't "easy peasy". I am for the death penalty in principle, but am against it unless it is possible to be 100% certain of guilt. In a lot of cases, as has been proven by DNA exoneration of death row inmates, guilt isn't 100% certain. The standard to apply the death penalty should be beyond any doubt, not beyond reasonable doubt, because you can't reverse a death penalty after it's been applied. That is why, under current circumstances, I am against the death penalty even though I am for it philosophically.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Legs

Speaking of closemindedness. I have said several times that I would be willing to change my stance on the DP if there were sentances that would guarantee no release to reoffend.

Actually you've already changed your stance on the DP just recently. I just re-read all your posts on your other thread and you went from saying:

Originally Posted by Legs

You keep mixing up the DP as it is now with my views. I told you I don't support it, now as it is.

to

Originally Posted by Legs

I don't consider the DP a deterrent, I consider it a consequence. IMO for these heinous crimes agaist children unable to defend themselves, especially brutal sex crimes - rehabilitation is a lost cause for the predators *who will* reoffend, given the opportunity.

Maybe the anti DP bleeding hearts can sleep at night knowing there is no blood on their hands.

There will be blood though, when the perp is out in 10 years and does it again ~ not his blood though, some child's somewhere.

So I guess that's open-minded, in a sense.

Btw, is your suggestion that anyone who opposes the death penalty will have the blood of children on their hands an example of that respect for others' difference of opinion you were talking about earlier?

I have not seen one Anti DP person say they would be willing to change their stance for any given reason. So who is closeminded here?

My opposition to the death penalty has to do with the fact that human systems are fallible, so the only reason I would change my opinion at this juncture is if human systems became infallible. So okay, for the record I will seriously reconsider my stance when we devise an infallible legal system.

Originally Posted by Legs

That was not in response to news of executions. Who was executed? I must have missed it. Can you give me the link to it?

Wesley Allan Dodd, and your is right here on the first page of this thread.

My woohoo was contained in my post - which said. <snip>

Am I not entitled to be pleased about that? It makes me delighted that they are considering the DP for repeat sex offenders because, *surprise* I support the DP for child sex predators.

It made me happy and I woohoo'd and you have nothing to discuss about the article or the ruling or the vote or my post - you and Scarlatti *only* see the woohoo.

Right, your first wasn't a direct response to someone's execution, just to news of expanded application of the death penalty going forward. I don't see how that's importantly different from cheering about the execution of Dodd. I do find it odd that you would claim to be entirely matter of fact and unemotional about the death penalty in one post and literally cheering about it in another, but after the swing from "leaning toward" supporting the DP to thinking anyone who opposes it has the blood of children on their hands I'm getting accustomed to the contradictions.

Originally Posted by Legs

Thank you for apologizing. I forgive you.

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by Legs

Now, please stop trying to intimidate me or browbeat me or whatever it is you are up to, you are no more intimidating to me than a mosquito wearing a party hat.

None of the above. It's a waste of effort, is what it is.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I just re-read all your posts on your other thread and you went from saying:

Really, you read all of them? how about this one?

Originally Posted by Legs

By the way, if you haven't noticed I don't support the DP for murdered adults or police officers etc... just heinous crimes commited against the most vunerable victims by preditors. This is based on the constant failure of the legal system for letting child preditors back out to repeat offences. I think there should be zero toleracy, no slap on the wrists for first time* offenders, this was the case I would alter my stance.

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Btw, is your suggestion that anyone who opposes the death penalty will have the blood of children on their hands an example of that respect for others' difference of opinion you were talking about earlier?

I never said that. I said 'may' have blood on their hands in 10 years if the offender is let out to repeat. What has that got to do with respecting an opinion on the DP? You are picking and chosing posts and wording, splitting hairs to try and make arguments. It's really getting silly now.

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

My opposition to the death penalty has to do with the fact that human systems are fallible, so the only reason I would change my opinion at this juncture is if human systems became infallible. So okay, for the record I will seriously reconsider my stance when we devise an infallible legal system.

I don't have a problem with that. Many people feel the same way and I do not want innocent people to die or go to jail either. An infallible legal system is a pipedream as is my *wish* for DP sentences for child sex preditors.

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Wesley Allan Dodd, and your isright here on the first page of this thread.

No, my woohoo was not for WAD (ha! good inititals) it was for godfry n. glad who had the balls to make a post like that.

Don't steal g n. g's appreciation woohoo and tell me I meant something else with it.

vm,if you look for negative things in a post you will find them no matter how innocent the post is - and it is apparant that every thing I post and even my smilie choices are under your scrutiny.

If that's how you want to spend your time, looking for things to be offended by you really need a another hobby, like fly fishing or something. It's not good for you.

Originally Posted by Legs

[Legs]

Originally Posted by D. Scarlatti

None of the above. It's a waste of effort, is what it is.

It is definately a waste of effort to try and get under my skin, glad you finally realized it.

[D. Scarlatti]

That was never my intent and that definitely isn't what I've realized.

[Legs]

Slow learner.

[D. Scarlatti]

More like benefit of the doubt.

[Legs]

Are you still here? I thought you had an epiphany in post 103? yet you keep coming back

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Legs

I never said that. I said 'may' have blood on their hands in 10 years if the offender is let out to repeat. What has that got to do with respecting an opinion on the DP?

No, you didn't say 'may' have blood on their hands. You said "there will be blood". You were very clearly suggesting that "anti DP bleeding hearts" will have the blood of children on their hands "when the perp is out in 10 years and does it again". Do you really not see what that has to do with respecting someone's position on the issue?

Originally Posted by Legs

I don't have a problem with that. Many people feel the same way and I do not want innocent people to die or go to jail either. An infallible legal system is a pipedream as is my *wish* for DP sentences for child sex preditors.

Well it's not always clear that your support for the death penalty applies only to a utopian fantasy world. When you make derisive comments about "anti-Dp'ers" like the one above it tends to look like you're decidedly pro-death penalty here in the real world.

No, my woohoo was not for WAD (ha! good inititals) it was for godfry n. glad who had the balls to make a post like that.

Don't steal g n. g's appreciation woohoo and tell me I meant something else with it.

I assure you it was not my intent to steal godfry's appreciation woohoo*, I genuinely thought you were cheering for the death of Wesley Allan Dodd. Why wouldn't I think that? It's your fantasy come true, isn't it?

And really Legs, I assure you my life isn't so empty that I have to pore over your posts splitting hairs, scrutinizing your smiley choices and looking for things to be offended by. I don't know where you're getting this paranoid vision of some hidden agenda on my part.




*I've always wanted to say that.

[Legs]

vm, I have no idea what you are going on about. You keep picking and choosing and deliberately taking things out of context to validate what you 'think' I mean. I have said several times I respect your views on the DP. Sorry if you can't accept that, I don't think you respect mine either.

I am not angry, I am not irrational, I am not bloodlusting or thirsting or what ever it is you said. I don't hold a grudge, I couldn't care less if people don't agree with my opinion, I do not dislike anyone who has different views from me.

You have been so wrong on so many things you have posted to/or about me in the past few days. That other thread is titled correctly and does not need a name change. This thread has nothing to do with the other thread it is a completely new topic that I thought would be interesting.

My woohoos were not for predators being executed, on both counts you were completely wrong and now this thread, which started off really well with lots of people sharing and contributing was torpedoed by your negative remarks.

I wish you had just answered the OP with how you felt about the DP vs abortion and left it at that.

I want to thank the posters who responded here and apologize for the distractions. I don't blame anyone for losing interest in posting but if anyone still wishes to discuss abortion vs DP, I'm in.

vm, this particular conversation is over.

[seebs]

I have no idea whether I am officially considered for or against either; I can't reduce most things to booleans.

I personally think that both abortions and executions are probably bad. I think there's a much stronger case for legal abortion than legal execution.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

Even my pro-death stance isn't "easy peasy".

Sorry Dingod, I didn't see your post.

I don't mean coming to the decision is easy peasy - there is a lot to consider. I mean that (by now) you know how you feel about these issues and can express them to us.

Scarlatti was saying what he was saying for other reasons IMO You on the other hand were able to answer the OP right away.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Legs

I wish you had just answered the OP with how you felt about the DP vs abortion and left it at that.

Actually I should've just avoided the thread altogether. I'll try to remember to do so in the future.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by seebs

I have no idea whether I am officially considered for or against either; I can't reduce most things to booleans.

I personally think that both abortions and executions are probably bad. I think there's a much stronger case for legal abortion than legal execution.

Hi seebs, thanks for posting.

[pescifish]

• against capital punishment
• pro-choice (not pro-abortion)

Originally Posted by Legs

I don't know why you are over complicating it. Others had no problems saying Pro Choice, Pro DP or whatever. It was actually extremely simple.

The issues are not simple.

My answer may look simple, but the surprise you have expressed at this combination demonstrates that you seem to have different ideas about what might define and/or complicate these two questions than I do.

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by Legs

Are you still here?

Yep. Is that okay with you, or should I have asked your permission?

I thought you had an epiphany in post 103?

You have a lot of thoughts that have little or no basis in reality, this being another in a continuing series.

yet you keep coming back

Because of remarks like this:

Scarlatti was saying what he was saying for other reasons

Yet another in the continuing series, this time with a dash of remarkable psychic insight. Please stop making shit up, okay?

This is not the first time you've raised the issue of whether or not I should be posting in a thread because my comments haven't met your rarefied standards. And on each occasion you've made this sort of misrepresentative, dumbass remark after you suggested I stop posting.

In the meantime you consistently fail to address substantive points I (and others) have raised, casually dismissing them as "lame," or ignoring them altogether.

You're behaving just like a troll, except you're out of your league in that department as well. I'm afraid your desire for certain people to remove themselves from your "discussions" will be unfulfilled so long as you maintain your idiotic nattering about them during what you expect is their absence.

[Legs]

Originally Posted by pescifish

• against capital punishment
• pro-choice (not pro-abortion)

My answer may look simple, but the surprise you have expressed at this combination demonstrates that you seem to have different ideas about what might define and/or complicate these two questions than I do.

Hi pesci, thanks for replying.

Did you just discover yesterday that you were against Capital punishment & pro-choice (not pro-abortion)?

or have you known this for a while?

I never said arriving at personal decisions on these issues were simple. I said that by now, at our age we should know how we stand on the issues and be able to answer the OP. Which you were clearly able to do.

Others were baffled and I am certain it had more to do with who was asking the question, than the question itself.

[Legs]

I see you are back again Scarlatti. Maybe I was wrong, maybe you just need to have the last word. Post away.

[Tanda]

I think that opinions on this issue can change as a consequence to life experiences. I can see how people could remain on the fence.

[Legs]

Anyone on the fence can just say that. Simple answer to the OP.

I can see how opinions can change though (with open mindedness)

It is pretty clear that many of the Anti DP'ers will change their opinion on DP only if the legal system becomes infallible. Which is just fancy wording for 'I will never change my mind' they know the legal system will always be fallible.

Even if someone is on the fence. They should know that and be able to answer the OP without difficulty

[viscousmemories]

Legs, I seem to have missed your simple "yes or no" answer to this simple question. Didn't you say you are against the death penalty in the real world but you're in favor of it in the fantasy world where it could be reserved for child killers only? Does that make you an "Anti DP'er" or a "Pro DP'er" here in the real world, then?

[Legs]

Legs, I seem to have missed your simple "yes or no" answer to this simple question.

Really? I believe I ditto'd (smilin I think) who is pro DP & Pro choice.

I most certainly gave a simple answer. I did not, however give a complicated one.

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I seem to have missed ...

That's just your bafflement, baffling you. You're one baffled unit, baffling in your baffleosity.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by Legs

Anyone on the fence can just say that. Simple answer to the OP.

Your obsession with simple and easy answers is hard to fathom, as is your discomfort with people actually explaining their subtle views with some subtlety. Consider Warren, whom you were high-fiving earlier for saying that, were he a cop, he might shoot the worst murderers while arresting them. (Of course you also said that vigilantes are nutty, so you have all the bases covered.) Should he really just have said "I'm on the fence" at the outset, and nothing more, given that he now turns out to hold the "fancy" view that the fallibility of the judicial system is relevant to his thinking about capital punishment?

It is pretty clear that many of the Anti DP'ers will change their opinion on DP only if the legal system becomes infallible. Which is just fancy wording for 'I will never change my mind' they know the legal system will always be fallible.

Setting aside yet another mind-reading and sliming of those who disagree with you, what on earth is your objection to the idea an opponent of capital punishment might actually base that view on facts about the legal system -- including its fallibility? How dare they base their beliefs on facts that are unlikely to change; that must make them closed-minded!